Baby Jesus is a Spy and Hidden Hand Solved (almost)

This message is brought to You by a very tired and happy “puppet” lol Would you believe I haven’t slept in 4 days?


It is true that The Grand Deception, is that Space (as we've been taught) is a Lie

(Please see the Illuminati Playing Cards)

---> The Earth is not a spinning ball ---> “Flat Earthers are indeed on to something.”

But here is where it gets even trickier, our entire reality is in fact an illusion. (A magnificent, perfect illusion --- and one that is indeed very, very malleable --- it is pure magic --- And is so awesome!!!)

Also our God, for all intents and purposes really is a Dog. We Love Him SO Much. And He Loves All of Us Unconditionally. And I really mean it --- he loves everyone --- axe murders, Saints, Fools, Jokers, Champions, Heroes WAKE UP!

He created this world as an adventure for all of us to learn and grow.

I know it sounds so absurd, but everything in our reality is quite literally backwards and upside down.

This is just an incredibly absurd and glorious game. So please don't ever be scared and know we have already won! It is our destiny --- this play was written for US!


(Wow am looking forward to reading all your replies --- thank you so much for carrying on --- Much love to you all!)

Sincerely,

The Joker, The Fool and The Champion

(And also a very, very tired puppet!)



This has been a BREAKING transmission by the Joker and the Fool

So Be It.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: chr0naut

For I spoke not unto your fathers nor commanded them, in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. Jeremiah 7:22

So, can you explain to me why God would say He DIDN'T tell them to offer burnt offerings or sacrifices, then tell them to offer sacrifices and burnt offerings? Like I've said, there is a mixture of two voices going on throughout the OT.

Also, YHWH was not the Most High God. The true Father of Jesus was not YHWH.

The answer is simple.

Firstly, the God, who is speaking through Jeremiah in 7:22, is clearly identified by Jeremiah as YHWH (13 times from the start of the chapter up to verse 22). It would appear that God wanted to be absolutely clear as to who was speaking - YHWH, not some other secret deity.

The people God was talking to, that YHWH was addressing in the speech, were the tribe of Ephraim (see verse 15). It is obvious from the passage, taken in context, that YHWH God blamed the half-Egyptian tribe of Ephraim for corruption of true worship.

YHWH God gave the priestly duties (including the rules of sacrifice) to the tribe of Levi and none other. So, the tribe of Ephraim were not given rules and statutes regarding sacrifice. If Ephraimites had been offering sacrifice, then the sacrifices would have been "strange flesh" - unsanctioned sacrifices.

I know by the character and the fruits of "said God", which Jesus said to pay attention to. Also, the HS is the Spirit of TRUTH, and that's how I see it. For YHWH to command animals to be sacrificed for him, condone slavery, order his people to kill, treat women as subservient to men, ok taking women or girls (only the virgins, of course) as spoils of war, and numerous other atrocities.....is plain evil.

The character and fruits of YHWH God, as revealed in the Bible, encompasses everything that exists. This includes you and your 'moral' outrage against YHWH.



I doubt that YHWH God condones slavery. His laws of jubilee mandate that slaves are freed and all debts cancelled every 7 years. If slavery exists, it is because God's law is being ignored.

YHWH God several times instructed that no spoils of war should be taken, especially foreign women and girls who would lead men astray into worshipping foreign idols. The Israelites were always getting in trouble because they ignored God's instructions on this.

God's laws do not mandate that a woman must be a slave to men. A woman was expected to defer to specifically ONLY her husband but were expected to be productive in business and society. For example, a little bit of poetry from Proverbs 31:10-31:

It is hard to find a good wife, because she is worth more than rubies. Her husband trusts her completely. With her, he has everything he needs. She does him good and not harm for as long as she lives. She looks for wool and flax and likes to work with her hands. She is like a trader’s ship, bringing food from far away. She gets up while it is still dark and prepares food for her family and feeds her servant girls. Se inspects a field and buys it. With money she earned, she plants a vineyard. She does her work with energy, and her arms are strong. She knows that what she makes is good. Her lamp burns late into the night. She makes thread with her hands and weaves her own cloth. She welcomes the poor and helps the needy. She does not worry about her family when it snows, because they all have fine clothes to keep them warm. She makes coverings for herself; her clothes are made of linen and other expensive material. Her husband is known at the city meetings, where he makes decisions as one of the leaders of the land. She makes linen clothes and sells them and provides belts to the merchants. She is strong and is respected by the people. She looks forward to the future with joy. She speaks wise words and teaches others to be kind. Se watches over her family and never wastes her time. Her children speak well of her. Her husband also praises her, saying, “There are many fine women, but you are better than all of them.” Charm can fool you, and beauty can trick you, but a woman who respects the Lord should be praised in public

Cows aren't stupid. They may not be as smart as a human, but they have the desire to LIVE just like you do.
Not only that, but humans kill for many more nefarious reasons than an animal will....should we treat humans like animals are at factory farms? You know, cause humans are so selfish, stupid and careless...not to mention heartless much of the time.
I have "little actual real world experience apart from urban areas and domesticated pets??" Huh. You know me so well, do you? Whatever, bro.
I have a challenge for you. Watch "Earthlings" on YouTube. I bet you won't, though. All you fundies talk a good game, but when it really comes down to actually SEEING what your attitude towards animals does to them, you don't have the balls to investigate it. Until you do, you have nothing to say. You really, really, don't.

I own a farm - with dairy cows. I do treat the cows with compassion and care but I'm also aware that the contentment and physical well being of the cows affects the protein balance of the milk, which affects its market price (generally, anyone who treats animals cruelly would be a psycho and a crap farmer, anyway).

a reply to: chr0naut

Perhaps because I have actual details and references in answer to what you suggest, it is your ideas which are built your upon supposition? (This is a clear call to support what you say with existing data - not in some sort of personal paraphrase but in true scholarly contextually accurate response.)

I don't need "scholarly data, or contextually accurate responses". I have something better. It's a "knowing" of what is "right and what is wrong". Killing some innocent creature to somehow make atonement for your or my "sins"....is WRONG. You can try to "scholar" your way out of that, and "contextualize" your way out of that, till the damn cows come home. It's still WRONG....SICK...TWISTED....and just plain STUPID. It makes no kinda dang sense, except in the minds of indoctrinated fundamental Christians, because the "god" out of the book you believe to be totally inerrant, HOLY, and infallible....said it's what he deems necessary.
Any person with half a heart can see through it as being evil. I don't give a flying flip if you think it's necessary. It NEVER WAS. YHWH wasted thousands of years demanding something that did NOTHING. NOTHING to take away anyone's sin.
On top of that, Jesus never claimed to be a sacrifice. He did something extraordinary. He was born a human, indwelt by the TRUE God's Spirit (the Spirit of TRUTH), and knew that He would be MURDERED for speaking that truth. Yet, He did it anyway. He was human, yet indwelt by a spirit from a totally different realm....the true realm of perfection.
This world is not perfection, and it's also stupid to blame the whole human race for something YHWH instigated in the first place.
Have you even experienced the true Spirit? Have you encountered the true LOVE that comes from that real Being? I have. Jesus represented that Being. He did not represent YHWH. AT ALL. Show me how He did. Show me how Jesus' character, matched up with YHWH'S.
Oh, and when you can find the time.....educate yourself on what humans are doing to different species on this planet. By the way, stop making excuses for it. Just learn something about what is really happening. Also, explain the rotten fruit you're going to find, due to your god saying "eat them". Good luck.

I own a farm - with dairy cows. I do treat the cows with compassion and care but I'm also aware that the contentment and physical well being of the cows affects the protein balance of the milk, which affects its market price (generally, anyone who treats animals cruelly would be a psycho and a crap farmer, anyway).

Once again...you can treat them as sweet as you want. But, if you take them to a slaughter house...then you really do NOT care.
Let me ask you this, if someone treated you wonderfully for a year...then, one day, snuck up on you, grabbed you and then slit your throat, and even if you weren't unconscious or dead, hung you upside down to let you bleed out, while simultaneously starting to carve you up like a Thanksgiving turkey....would you feel "humanely" treated by them? Or how bout "loved"? Don't think so. Can you come up with another rationalization?

edit on 19-3-2017 by Matrixsurvivor because: (no reason given)

a reply to: chr0naut

I honestly don't know how to get through to you. Trust me, you aren't making a dent in what I know....you're just flexing your fundamental muscles right now. Pat yourself on the back, cause you are so biblically educated. It's sad because you are missing so much of what really matters. LOVE. Not just love for people, but love for creatures that aren't human. You feel entitled to do whatever you want to those creatures....which basically makes you a hypocrite. Yet, you excuse that hypocrisy, because the god you believe in, said it's ok to do so....right?

I don't know how to embed videos here. Please look up on YouTube..."Oops Mom I let the Cow In".
When you are done with that one...
look up..."Cow intelligence and ability".

You could spend indefinite days actually learning that the animals you see as stupid...AREN'T. But, you keep telling yourself that. It gives you an excuse to treat them however you want.

And I still want to see if you have the balls to watch "Earthlings". Probably don't, though. I have zero respect for anyone who can't look at both sides....and I don't give a flying flip if you are a dairy farmer. Hang out in some slaughter houses for awhile. Oh, and if you already do, and it doesn't affect you, then I don't care how much you talk about sacrifice "till it hurts". You have no clue.

a reply to: chr0naut

YHWH God several times instructed that no spoils of war should be taken, especially foreign women and girls who would lead men astray into worshipping foreign idols. The Israelites were always getting in trouble because they ignored God's instructions on this.

Numbers 31
(31:1-40)
The Midianite massacre: Have you saved all the women alive?
Under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins -- Wow! (Even God gets some of the booty -- including the virgins.)
Is it wrong to commit adultery?
God's 26th Killing
(31:1) "The LORD spake unto Moses, saying,"

(31:2) "Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites."

(31:7) "As the Lord commanded Moses ... they slew all the males."
Did the Israelites kill every male in Midian?

(31:8) "And they slew the ... five kings of Midian ... Balaam also ... they slew with the sword."

(31:9) "The children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones."

(31:10) "And they burnt all their cities."

31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
31:3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.
31:4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
31:5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
31:6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.
31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
31:12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. (31:14) "Moses was wroth with the officers"
(31:15) "And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?"
Was Moses meek?
What the Bible says rape and abortion

(31:17) "Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him."

(31:18) "But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
What the Bible says about Pedophilia

31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

God's laws do not mandate that a woman must be a slave to men. A woman was expected to defer to specifically ONLY her husband but were expected to be productive in business and society. For example, a little bit of poetry from Proverbs 31:10-31:

1. In the Bible's book of Deuteronomy it says that if a man marries a woman and then decides that he hates her, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they married. At that point her father must prove she was a virgin. (How is not explained.) If he can't, then the girl is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep.

2. If you see a pretty woman among your captives and would like her for a wife, then bring her home and "go in unto her." Later, if you decide you don't like her, you can simply "let her go." (Deuteronomy)

3. If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." (Deuteronomy)

4. In the book of Esther the king apparently decrees a sex contest among young virgin women to see who can best please him. (There is debate on how.) He eventually chooses Esther. However, since women are viewed as inherently dirty, Esther must be "purified" for twelve months before she can be made queen. (Esther)

5. Paul points out in New Testament Romans that "the natural use" of women is to provide men with sex. (Romans)

6. Heaven is to be inhabited by 144,000 virgin men who have not been "defiled" by women. (RE 14:1-4) [One wonders how this squares with God's command to, "Be fruitful and multiply...(Genesis )]

7. A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's wife: "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine (wife); let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The women were subsequently ravished and killed. (JG))

8. In Exod. we see that it is permissible to sell one's daughter (but apparently not one's son) into slavery..

9. According to St. Jerome, "Nothing is so unclean as a woman in her periods; what she touches she causes to be unclean." In Leviticus it states, "If a woman conceives and bears a male child, she shall be ceremonially unclean seven days...if she bears a female child she shall be unclean two weeks...."

10. "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died." (Judges)

11. Under God's direction, Moses' army kills all the adult males, but they mercifully just take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some women and children alive, he angrily says: "Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him."

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I own a farm - with dairy cows. I do treat the cows with compassion and care but I'm also aware that the contentment and physical well being of the cows affects the protein balance of the milk, which affects its market price (generally, anyone who treats animals cruelly would be a psycho and a crap farmer, anyway).

Once again...you can treat them as sweet as you want. But, if you take them to a slaughter house...then you really do NOT care.
Let me ask you this, if someone treated you wonderfully for a year...then, one day, snuck up on you, grabbed you and then slit your throat, and even if you weren't unconscious or dead, hung you upside down to let you bleed out, while simultaneously starting to carve you up like a Thanksgiving turkey....would you feel "humanely" treated by them? Or how bout "loved"? Don't think so. Can you come up with another rationalization?

a reply to: chr0naut

I doubt that YHWH God condones slavery. His laws of jubilee mandate that slaves are freed and all debts cancelled every 7 years. If slavery exists, it is because God's law is being ignored.

You DOUBT God condones slavery?? So...he needed a law of jubilee to Mandate that slaves should be freed after SEVEN years?
Ooooo....how gracious of him! Gosh, (in you own words of why god couldn't be very clear of which was the right one and which was the wrong one)...then, WHY THE HELL COULDN'T GOD SAY, "HEY GUY'S...KEEPING SOMEONE AS YOUR SLAVE IS WRONG...DON'T DO IT!! OR.....DON'T TREAT WOMEN AS SUBSERVIENT!.....OR, DON'T TAKE VIRGIN WOMEN (LIKE LITTLE GIRLS) AS SPOILS OF WAR....OR, DON'T HURT OTHER SENTIENT BEINGS (EVEN THE ONES THAT AREN'T HUMAN)....

NEED I GO ON?

THAT'S what you worship, Mr. Dairy Farmer. By the way, do you keep your cows producing milk by keeping them pregnant? Do you take away their babies right after birth? Cause that's what happens to billions of cows every year that are being used to put all that milk in the grocery store for all those folks out there grocery shopping. Or, are you a small town dairy farmer, who tries to do it right? I sure hope so. Either way, you need to know what is going on "mass production" wise on this wonderful planet "god" thought was a good idea.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: chr0naut

I doubt that YHWH God condones slavery. His laws of jubilee mandate that slaves are freed and all debts cancelled every 7 years. If slavery exists, it is because God's law is being ignored.

You DOUBT God condones slavery?? So...he needed a law of jubilee to Mandate that slaves should be freed after SEVEN years?
Ooooo....how gracious of him! Gosh, (in you own words of why god couldn't be very clear of which was the right one and which was the wrong one)...then, WHY THE HELL COULDN'T GOD SAY, "HEY GUY'S...KEEPING SOMEONE AS YOUR SLAVE IS WRONG...DON'T DO IT!! OR.....DON'T TREAT WOMEN AS SUBSERVIENT!.....OR, DON'T TAKE VIRGIN WOMEN (LIKE LITTLE GIRLS) AS SPOILS OF WAR....OR, DON'T HURT OTHER SENTIENT BEINGS (EVEN THE ONES THAT AREN'T HUMAN)....

NEED I GO ON?

THAT'S what you worship, Mr. Dairy Farmer. By the way, do you keep your cows producing milk by keeping them pregnant? Do you take away their babies right after birth? Cause that's what happens to billions of cows every year that are being used to put all that milk in the grocery store for all those folks out there grocery shopping. Or, are you a small town dairy farmer, who tries to do it right? I sure hope so. Either way, you need to know what is going on "mass production" wise on this wonderful planet "god" thought was a good idea.

Cows mate normally once a year and gestation takes 91/2 months. Most calves are born between October and December, which is when the cows produce the most milk, as one might expect.

Very young calves are moved indoors for five or six weeks and they also have to be taught how to drink. They don't automatically take to the teat! Their parents continue to walk to pastures which the calves cannot reach when newborn. The farmers are NECESSARY for the survival of the calves. Cows are a domesticated animal that has become dependent upon human intervention and herd management. So, yes, we do take the calves away from their mums at night, or in bad weather and only temporarily.

During April to may, milking season comes to an end and farmers stop milking them. In New Zealand, we call this 'drying off' the cows. Not all cows are dried off at the same time. It is cow biology that determines when it happens. Milking does not resume until next Spring, when calving starts the whole cycle again.

On a dairy farm cows are more valuable than bulls so we don't usually have many bulls (which are normally pastured separate to the cows and calves). It is normal that the bulls would service as many cows as they are able but we also artificially inseminate cows because there aren't usually enough bulls. Bulls also have 'temperament' issues which make makes caring for herds of them problematic.

There are also issues of having too much stock for available pastures, so we don't want to keep cows pregnant (note, they don't really provide milk while pregnant, they lactate to feed the calves). If you breed too many cows, you have to supplement their feed and it is expensive, eating into profitability. This gets worse during the winter when pasture growth is very limited.

Both large and quite small farms do much the same thing as we are dependent upon the biology of the cows for our income.

Of course, that's probably not how they farm in the US.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I own a farm - with dairy cows. I do treat the cows with compassion and care but I'm also aware that the contentment and physical well being of the cows affects the protein balance of the milk, which affects its market price (generally, anyone who treats animals cruelly would be a psycho and a crap farmer, anyway).

Once again...you can treat them as sweet as you want. But, if you take them to a slaughter house...then you really do NOT care.
Let me ask you this, if someone treated you wonderfully for a year...then, one day, snuck up on you, grabbed you and then slit your throat, and even if you weren't unconscious or dead, hung you upside down to let you bleed out, while simultaneously starting to carve you up like a Thanksgiving turkey....would you feel "humanely" treated by them? Or how bout "loved"? Don't think so. Can you come up with another rationalization?

I don't take my stock to a "slaughterhouse". If they have to be put down, the vet or a 'homekill' service do it. The homekill service usually shoots the beast in the head at close range to kill it.

As I understand it, abattoirs do not kill the cows by cutting their throats. They have a device which administers a blow to the brain (similar to the one that the killer in "No Country for Old Men" used). It is called a captive bolt pistol. This may not always kill the beast, so the throat is cut too, but the beast is unconscious by the time its throat is cut.

The carcasses are just not hung and bled or butchered alive. Even if they were slaughtered by only having their throat cut, they would be dead in seconds. The brain looses consciousness and dies rapidly when deprived of blood. There is no way a beast could be aware that its carcass is being hung.

It is normal to hang a newly butchered carcass until the blood stops flowing out. Skinning, gutting and preparation of the meat does not happen straight away, but after the carcass has hung for a while. Cutting it up while it is hanging would be really difficult. You need to take the carcass down before preparing it.

After skinning and gutting, the carcass is hung again in a cool room for about 10 days before it is divided up into the various cuts.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I own a farm - with dairy cows. I do treat the cows with compassion and care but I'm also aware that the contentment and physical well being of the cows affects the protein balance of the milk, which affects its market price (generally, anyone who treats animals cruelly would be a psycho and a crap farmer, anyway).

Once again...you can treat them as sweet as you want. But, if you take them to a slaughter house...then you really do NOT care.
Let me ask you this, if someone treated you wonderfully for a year...then, one day, snuck up on you, grabbed you and then slit your throat, and even if you weren't unconscious or dead, hung you upside down to let you bleed out, while simultaneously starting to carve you up like a Thanksgiving turkey....would you feel "humanely" treated by them? Or how bout "loved"? Don't think so. Can you come up with another rationalization?

I don't take my stock to a "slaughterhouse". If they have to be put down, the vet or a 'homekill' service do it. The homekill service usually shoots the beast in the head at close range to kill it.

As I understand it, abattoirs do not kill the cows by cutting their throats. They have a device which administers a blow to the brain (similar to the one that the killer in "No Country for Old Men" used). It is called a captive bolt pistol. This may not always kill the beast, so the throat is cut too, but the beast is unconscious by the time its throat is cut.

The carcasses are just not hung and bled or butchered alive. Even if they were slaughtered by only having their throat cut, they would be dead in seconds. The brain looses consciousness and dies rapidly when deprived of blood. There is no way a beast could be aware that its carcass is being hung.

It is normal to hang a newly butchered carcass until the blood stops flowing out. Skinning, gutting and preparation of the meat does not happen straight away, but after the carcass has hung for a while. Cutting it up while it is hanging would be really difficult. You need to take the carcass down before preparing it.

After skinning and gutting, the carcass is hung again in a cool room for about 10 days before it is divided up into the various cuts.

You should watch the documentary on YouTube called "Earthlings".

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I own a farm - with dairy cows. I do treat the cows with compassion and care but I'm also aware that the contentment and physical well being of the cows affects the protein balance of the milk, which affects its market price (generally, anyone who treats animals cruelly would be a psycho and a crap farmer, anyway).

Once again...you can treat them as sweet as you want. But, if you take them to a slaughter house...then you really do NOT care.
Let me ask you this, if someone treated you wonderfully for a year...then, one day, snuck up on you, grabbed you and then slit your throat, and even if you weren't unconscious or dead, hung you upside down to let you bleed out, while simultaneously starting to carve you up like a Thanksgiving turkey....would you feel "humanely" treated by them? Or how bout "loved"? Don't think so. Can you come up with another rationalization?

I don't take my stock to a "slaughterhouse". If they have to be put down, the vet or a 'homekill' service do it. The homekill service usually shoots the beast in the head at close range to kill it.

As I understand it, abattoirs do not kill the cows by cutting their throats. They have a device which administers a blow to the brain (similar to the one that the killer in "No Country for Old Men" used). It is called a captive bolt pistol. This may not always kill the beast, so the throat is cut too, but the beast is unconscious by the time its throat is cut.

The carcasses are just not hung and bled or butchered alive. Even if they were slaughtered by only having their throat cut, they would be dead in seconds. The brain looses consciousness and dies rapidly when deprived of blood. There is no way a beast could be aware that its carcass is being hung.

It is normal to hang a newly butchered carcass until the blood stops flowing out. Skinning, gutting and preparation of the meat does not happen straight away, but after the carcass has hung for a while. Cutting it up while it is hanging would be really difficult. You need to take the carcass down before preparing it.

After skinning and gutting, the carcass is hung again in a cool room for about 10 days before it is divided up into the various cuts.

You should watch the documentary on YouTube called "Earthlings".

I have watched the film. Much of it is truly horrific.

The part of the film that was titled "Milking" was an outright lie. I don't know anyone who treats their animals like that. If I were to find out about someone who mistreated their animals in that way, I'd report them straight to MAF (the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, who police guidelines for humane treatment of farm animals here in New Zealand) and to the Humane Society!

If the one section of the film, on a topic that I do know a lot about, was false, it kind of erodes my trust in the rest of it.

I believe it is cobbled together footage of the worst of malefactors, presented as if that is the norm. It is like misrepresenting the European peoples by showing the horrific WW2 film clips from Belsen, Trebinka and Auschwitz, as if that is how all Europeans treat foreigners.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I own a farm - with dairy cows. I do treat the cows with compassion and care but I'm also aware that the contentment and physical well being of the cows affects the protein balance of the milk, which affects its market price (generally, anyone who treats animals cruelly would be a psycho and a crap farmer, anyway).

Once again...you can treat them as sweet as you want. But, if you take them to a slaughter house...then you really do NOT care.
Let me ask you this, if someone treated you wonderfully for a year...then, one day, snuck up on you, grabbed you and then slit your throat, and even if you weren't unconscious or dead, hung you upside down to let you bleed out, while simultaneously starting to carve you up like a Thanksgiving turkey....would you feel "humanely" treated by them? Or how bout "loved"? Don't think so. Can you come up with another rationalization?

I don't take my stock to a "slaughterhouse". If they have to be put down, the vet or a 'homekill' service do it. The homekill service usually shoots the beast in the head at close range to kill it.

As I understand it, abattoirs do not kill the cows by cutting their throats. They have a device which administers a blow to the brain (similar to the one that the killer in "No Country for Old Men" used). It is called a captive bolt pistol. This may not always kill the beast, so the throat is cut too, but the beast is unconscious by the time its throat is cut.

The carcasses are just not hung and bled or butchered alive. Even if they were slaughtered by only having their throat cut, they would be dead in seconds. The brain looses consciousness and dies rapidly when deprived of blood. There is no way a beast could be aware that its carcass is being hung.

It is normal to hang a newly butchered carcass until the blood stops flowing out. Skinning, gutting and preparation of the meat does not happen straight away, but after the carcass has hung for a while. Cutting it up while it is hanging would be really difficult. You need to take the carcass down before preparing it.

After skinning and gutting, the carcass is hung again in a cool room for about 10 days before it is divided up into the various cuts.

You should watch the documentary on YouTube called "Earthlings".

I have watched the film. Much of it is truly horrific.

The part of the film that was titled "Milking" was an outright lie. I don't know anyone who treats their animals like that. If I were to find out about someone who mistreated their animals in that way, I'd report them straight to MAF (the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, who police guidelines for humane treatment of farm animals here in New Zealand) and to the Humane Society!

If the one section of the film, on a topic that I do know a lot about, was false, it kind of erodes my trust in the rest of it.

I believe it is cobbled together footage of the worst of malefactors, presented as if that is the norm. It is like misrepresenting the European peoples by showing the horrific WW2 film clips from Belsen, Trebinka and Auschwitz, as if that is how all Europeans treat foreigners.

Do you have factory farms in New Zealand? If you do, then go to one and ask to be allowed to watch their procedures for slaughtering. I bet you'll be denied.
Point is, the barbaric practices in that film are occurring in massive amounts daily. Where do you think the footage comes from?
Either way, I'm glad to hear you think it's wrong, too. Evil is a better description.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I own a farm - with dairy cows. I do treat the cows with compassion and care but I'm also aware that the contentment and physical well being of the cows affects the protein balance of the milk, which affects its market price (generally, anyone who treats animals cruelly would be a psycho and a crap farmer, anyway).

Once again...you can treat them as sweet as you want. But, if you take them to a slaughter house...then you really do NOT care.
Let me ask you this, if someone treated you wonderfully for a year...then, one day, snuck up on you, grabbed you and then slit your throat, and even if you weren't unconscious or dead, hung you upside down to let you bleed out, while simultaneously starting to carve you up like a Thanksgiving turkey....would you feel "humanely" treated by them? Or how bout "loved"? Don't think so. Can you come up with another rationalization?

I don't take my stock to a "slaughterhouse". If they have to be put down, the vet or a 'homekill' service do it. The homekill service usually shoots the beast in the head at close range to kill it.

As I understand it, abattoirs do not kill the cows by cutting their throats. They have a device which administers a blow to the brain (similar to the one that the killer in "No Country for Old Men" used). It is called a captive bolt pistol. This may not always kill the beast, so the throat is cut too, but the beast is unconscious by the time its throat is cut.

The carcasses are just not hung and bled or butchered alive. Even if they were slaughtered by only having their throat cut, they would be dead in seconds. The brain looses consciousness and dies rapidly when deprived of blood. There is no way a beast could be aware that its carcass is being hung.

It is normal to hang a newly butchered carcass until the blood stops flowing out. Skinning, gutting and preparation of the meat does not happen straight away, but after the carcass has hung for a while. Cutting it up while it is hanging would be really difficult. You need to take the carcass down before preparing it.

After skinning and gutting, the carcass is hung again in a cool room for about 10 days before it is divided up into the various cuts.

You should watch the documentary on YouTube called "Earthlings".

I have watched the film. Much of it is truly horrific.

The part of the film that was titled "Milking" was an outright lie. I don't know anyone who treats their animals like that. If I were to find out about someone who mistreated their animals in that way, I'd report them straight to MAF (the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, who police guidelines for humane treatment of farm animals here in New Zealand) and to the Humane Society!

If the one section of the film, on a topic that I do know a lot about, was false, it kind of erodes my trust in the rest of it.

I believe it is cobbled together footage of the worst of malefactors, presented as if that is the norm. It is like misrepresenting the European peoples by showing the horrific WW2 film clips from Belsen, Trebinka and Auschwitz, as if that is how all Europeans treat foreigners.

Do you have factory farms in New Zealand? If you do, then go to one and ask to be allowed to watch their procedures for slaughtering. I bet you'll be denied.
Point is, the barbaric practices in that film are occurring in massive amounts daily. Where do you think the footage comes from?
Either way, I'm glad to hear you think it's wrong, too. Evil is a better description.

We do have factory farms in New Zealand, mainly for poultry, however these are being phased out as there is significant public opposition.

New Zealand is a few Islands and does not have a large manufacturing industry, or enormous coal, oil and iron resources. Pretty much everything we have to trade is farmed. The ecological sustainability and quality of our produce is vital to our economy. There are ongoing efforts to ensure we treat animals with increasing levels of care and compassion.

We have Animal Welfare legislation here which is constantly being tightened and refined. Here's a link to a government website about the ongoing progress.

People are being prosecuted with sentences up to 4 years in jail, $20,000 fines and being banned from working with animals. We are serious about it here in NZ!

originally posted by: OwenandNoelle

Isn’t it odd that most of the evil that ever been committed in the world has been done in the name of Christianity and Islam?

Prove it.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I own a farm - with dairy cows. I do treat the cows with compassion and care but I'm also aware that the contentment and physical well being of the cows affects the protein balance of the milk, which affects its market price (generally, anyone who treats animals cruelly would be a psycho and a crap farmer, anyway).

Once again...you can treat them as sweet as you want. But, if you take them to a slaughter house...then you really do NOT care.
Let me ask you this, if someone treated you wonderfully for a year...then, one day, snuck up on you, grabbed you and then slit your throat, and even if you weren't unconscious or dead, hung you upside down to let you bleed out, while simultaneously starting to carve you up like a Thanksgiving turkey....would you feel "humanely" treated by them? Or how bout "loved"? Don't think so. Can you come up with another rationalization?

I don't take my stock to a "slaughterhouse". If they have to be put down, the vet or a 'homekill' service do it. The homekill service usually shoots the beast in the head at close range to kill it.

As I understand it, abattoirs do not kill the cows by cutting their throats. They have a device which administers a blow to the brain (similar to the one that the killer in "No Country for Old Men" used). It is called a captive bolt pistol. This may not always kill the beast, so the throat is cut too, but the beast is unconscious by the time its throat is cut.

The carcasses are just not hung and bled or butchered alive. Even if they were slaughtered by only having their throat cut, they would be dead in seconds. The brain looses consciousness and dies rapidly when deprived of blood. There is no way a beast could be aware that its carcass is being hung.

It is normal to hang a newly butchered carcass until the blood stops flowing out. Skinning, gutting and preparation of the meat does not happen straight away, but after the carcass has hung for a while. Cutting it up while it is hanging would be really difficult. You need to take the carcass down before preparing it.

After skinning and gutting, the carcass is hung again in a cool room for about 10 days before it is divided up into the various cuts.

You should watch the documentary on YouTube called "Earthlings".

I have watched the film. Much of it is truly horrific.

The part of the film that was titled "Milking" was an outright lie. I don't know anyone who treats their animals like that. If I were to find out about someone who mistreated their animals in that way, I'd report them straight to MAF (the Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry, who police guidelines for humane treatment of farm animals here in New Zealand) and to the Humane Society!

If the one section of the film, on a topic that I do know a lot about, was false, it kind of erodes my trust in the rest of it.

I believe it is cobbled together footage of the worst of malefactors, presented as if that is the norm. It is like misrepresenting the European peoples by showing the horrific WW2 film clips from Belsen, Trebinka and Auschwitz, as if that is how all Europeans treat foreigners.

Do you have factory farms in New Zealand? If you do, then go to one and ask to be allowed to watch their procedures for slaughtering. I bet you'll be denied.
Point is, the barbaric practices in that film are occurring in massive amounts daily. Where do you think the footage comes from?
Either way, I'm glad to hear you think it's wrong, too. Evil is a better description.

We do have factory farms in New Zealand, mainly for poultry, however these are being phased out as there is significant public opposition.

New Zealand is a few Islands and does not have a large manufacturing industry, or enormous coal, oil and iron resources. Pretty much everything we have to trade is farmed. The ecological sustainability and quality of our produce is vital to our economy. There are ongoing efforts to ensure we treat animals with increasing levels of care and compassion.

We have Animal Welfare legislation here which is constantly being tightened and refined. Here's a link to a government website about the ongoing progress.

People are being prosecuted with sentences up to 4 years in jail, $20,000 fines and being banned from working with animals. We are serious about it here in NZ!

Great. I'm happy to know that your people want to kill animals "humanely". Let me ask you something....and I want you to seriously ponder it. What gives ANYONE the right to take the life of another sentient being? I mean, whether they are slaughtered "humanely" or slaughtered with horrific pain and agony. Answer me this....why do humans think they have the "right" to take something else's life, simply for their taste buds or enjoyment (I'm thinking hunting here)? Or, do you not think that their lives are THEIRS....not ours? What gives anyone the right to steal that life for their own personal satisfaction?
If you could stop for one nanosecond and think to yourself, "would I want to be treated like that?"....you might have the answer.
Oh, and I don't want to hear "well, GOD said we could". Cause if that "god" said we could....then he's just as evil as the people that use and abuse animals in factory farms. Participating in it, in any shape or form (like buying the meat from a local grocer)....is participating in it.
Why don't we extend the same compassion to animals, that we do to humans (if even that). Most humans treat each other more lecherously than animals do to one another. Yet, we think we are the higher species. Not only that, but we feel we have the RIGHT to do whatever we want to other creatures on this planet, esp. if they aren't human.
Oh, and I know you have to know how ugly that is. To take the high ground and say, "well, I don't do that..and I wouldn't do that", is not good enough. If you don't protect them, and you EAT them, then you are just as culpable as those who actually commit the atrocities.
If you don't stand against something evil, then what's the point? You can't eat them and then bitch and moan because someone else treated them horrifically, then made sure you could put them on your dinner plate.
That's called hypocrisy, bro.

originally posted by: Talorc

originally posted by: OwenandNoelle

Isn’t it odd that most of the evil that ever been committed in the world has been done in the name of Christianity and Islam?

Prove it.

ARE YOU KIDDING?? Prove it?? You need some serious history lessons. How bout you go do some learning on your own. You know, like "out of the religious box". There are many other answers out there, to why the world is in the state it's in, BESIDES the Bible. Start with the archons and Gnosticism. Fascinating stuff, and it makes a whole lot more sense than Christianity or any religion for that matter (I include New Age and science in that, too).

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: Talorc

originally posted by: OwenandNoelle

Isn’t it odd that most of the evil that ever been committed in the world has been done in the name of Christianity and Islam?

Prove it.

ARE YOU KIDDING?? Prove it?? You need some serious history lessons. How bout you go do some learning on your own. You know, like "out of the religious box". There are many other answers out there, to why the world is in the state it's in, BESIDES the Bible. Start with the archons and Gnosticism. Fascinating stuff, and it makes a whole lot more sense than Christianity or any religion for that matter (I include New Age and science in that, too).

Perhaps since the human race existed for at least three and a half million years before Christianity and Islam, that perhaps evil was already quite well established?

... and the concept of the Archons owes its existence to Gnosticism (which preceeded it), which owes its existence to Christianity and Greek Mythology. The oldest example of 'Gnostic' evidence being the the 12 papyrus documents found in a jar at Nag Hammadi and dated to about 400 years after Christ. The Archons are a religious belief and are not well attested to by history.

In my opinion, the Gnostic concept that the spirit world is inherently good and that the material world is inherently evil makes little sense in the light of beliefs, across all human cultures and times, holding predominantly that the supernatural realm is full maleficent entities.

a reply to: chr0naut

Originally posted by chr0naut
In my opinion, the Gnostic concept that the spirit world is inherently good and that the material world is inherently evil makes little sense in the light of beliefs, across all human cultures and times, holding predominantly that the supernatural realm is full maleficent entities.

While it is true that past cultures believed in maleficent entities from the supernatural realms, many also believed in benevolent entities existing there too…The Gnostics were also aware of these dual spiritual forces existing…Which means that their belief that “The Spirit world is inherently good”…must have had a deeper meaning behind it.

I think those Gnostic ideas about the spirit world being inherently good and the material world being evil, was really just an accentuated teaching, that was trying make people realize that following God and the Spirit within, was more important than following after material things.

And not that the Earth/Flesh and Material things are evil per se…but only that following after them, without knowledge of the Spirit, is what is evil or can lead to evil etc...In other words, it was a teaching that was accentuating or exaggerating a point, in order to get people to follow after Spirit…

Of course there were many Gnostic sects and differing belief systems and ideas in regards to the demiurge. Not all Gnostics saw it the same way…although they did all recognize that Evil taking place in the OT was a problem, which they tried to reconcile…

However, I think the idea that the God of creation was Evil and therefore the whole material world must therefore also be Evil, was an idea that crept into a few other Gnostic sects, based on a misunderstanding of the true and original meaning behind it…IMO

For example, in the Sethian Gnostic school of thought, the Demiurge and the creation of the material world, was believed to have come from an Evil demonic force. But again this was just a misunderstanding…IMO

But in stark contrast, within the Gnostic Valentinian Demiurge, the God of creation was not regarded as being evil at all. Although admittedly, none of these Gnostic groups believed that the true God was the creator of this world…Although again, perhaps this just means that God is not found in the physical material world, but within the Spirit world etc…

Anyway, getting back to that spiritual Gnostic teaching…That same truth/teaching is reflected in the New Testament. It’s found in the concept of the flesh warring against the Spirit. Which is covered many times throughout the Bible…

These two verses are pretty good examples of it… Galatians 5:17 and Romans 7:23…


Galatians 5:17
“For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.”


In Galatians 5:17 above, the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, which means the flesh is desiring that which is Evil…but in Christianity, believers don’t think of the flesh as being evil per se…and neither do they (Christians) believe that the God who created our flesh is Evil either…


Romans 7:23
“But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me”


- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: chr0naut

Originally posted by chr0naut
In my opinion, the Gnostic concept that the spirit world is inherently good and that the material world is inherently evil makes little sense in the light of beliefs, across all human cultures and times, holding predominantly that the supernatural realm is full maleficent entities.

While it is true that past cultures believed in maleficent entities from the supernatural realms, many also believed in benevolent entities existing there too…The Gnostics were also aware of these dual spiritual forces existing…Which means that their belief that “The Spirit world is inherently good”…must have had a deeper meaning behind it.

I think those Gnostic ideas about the spirit world being inherently good and the material world being evil, was really just an accentuated teaching, that was trying make people realize that following God and the Spirit within, was more important than following after material things.

And not that the Earth/Flesh and Material things are evil per se…but only that following after them, without knowledge of the Spirit, is what is evil or can lead to evil etc...In other words, it was a teaching that was accentuating or exaggerating a point, in order to get people to follow after Spirit…

Of course there were many Gnostic sects and differing belief systems and ideas in regards to the demiurge. Not all Gnostics saw it the same way…although they did all recognize that Evil taking place in the OT was a problem, which they tried to reconcile…

However, I think the idea that the God of creation was Evil and therefore the whole material world must therefore also be Evil, was an idea that crept into a few other Gnostic sects, based on a misunderstanding of the true and original meaning behind it…IMO

For example, in the Sethian Gnostic school of thought, the Demiurge and the creation of the material world, was believed to have come from an Evil demonic force. But again this was just a misunderstanding…IMO

But in stark contrast, within the Gnostic Valentinian Demiurge, the God of creation was not regarded as being evil at all. Although admittedly, none of these Gnostic groups believed that the true God was the creator of this world…Although again, perhaps this just means that God is not found in the physical material world, but within the Spirit world etc…

Anyway, getting back to that spiritual Gnostic teaching…That same truth/teaching is reflected in the New Testament. It’s found in the concept of the flesh warring against the Spirit. Which is covered many times throughout the Bible…

These two verses are pretty good examples of it… Galatians 5:17 and Romans 7:23…

Galatians 5:17
“For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.”

In Galatians 5:17 above, the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, which means the flesh is desiring that which is Evil…but in Christianity, believers don’t think of the flesh as being evil per se…and neither do they (Christians) believe that the God who created our flesh is Evil either…

Romans 7:23
“But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me”

- JC

Thank you JoeC a very succinct response.

I see many of the Gnostic beliefs as just a twist on earlier polytheist beliefs and raises similar rational objections not exposed by monotheism.

For example, if there are a number of gods, they must have been 'birthed' from some spiritual realm which must be pre-existent and also has rules which define and control the gods. They also have the ability to oppose and vie with each other.

This means that individual gods are subservient both to the 'realm of the gods' and to other, stronger gods or with stronger alliances.

A monotheistic God is supreme to that, neither requiring a pre-existent realm or subservience to anything else.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: Talorc

originally posted by: OwenandNoelle

Isn’t it odd that most of the evil that ever been committed in the world has been done in the name of Christianity and Islam?

Prove it.

ARE YOU KIDDING?? Prove it?? You need some serious history lessons. How bout you go do some learning on your own. You know, like "out of the religious box". There are many other answers out there, to why the world is in the state it's in, BESIDES the Bible. Start with the archons and Gnosticism. Fascinating stuff, and it makes a whole lot more sense than Christianity or any religion for that matter (I include New Age and science in that, too).

Perhaps since the human race existed for at least three and a half million years before Christianity and Islam, that perhaps evil was already quite well established?

... and the concept of the Archons owes its existence to Gnosticism (which preceeded it), which owes its existence to Christianity and Greek Mythology. The oldest example of 'Gnostic' evidence being the the 12 papyrus documents found in a jar at Nag Hammadi and dated to about 400 years after Christ. The Archons are a religious belief and are not well attested to by history.

In my opinion, the Gnostic concept that the spirit world is inherently good and that the material world is inherently evil makes little sense in the light of beliefs, across all human cultures and times, holding predominantly that the supernatural realm is full maleficent entities.

You didn't answer the question.... Why do you think humans "think" they should have the right to take the life of an animal? Or, to eat them?
We have our "cattle" for a food source... what if something else feeds off of us? Like, all the negative we generate.