How to fix the criminal justice system?

originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: Krazysh0t

And my question to you would be...........just how much taxpayer money do you want to throw at this problem?

How much is enough?

Ever notice something? The more the US spends on education, the worse the result. Same thing with the Criminal justice system.

I was talking to someone earlier about this and we came to an agreement that the first thing that needs to happen is that we deescalate the war on drugs and start releasing many of those prisoners. That would in turn free up funds to be used elsewhere to rehabilitate the prisoners who really SHOULD be there.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Perfectenemy
a reply to: Krazysh0t

That's the problem with the current justice system. Some people just don't deserve this kind of protection. Waste of space,time,money and ressources. Everything could be better spent to help the people who are genuinely interested to live and work in a civil society. I know my solution is coldhearted but our current system isn't working. The world is already overcrowded and we need to reduce the population in the near future. 2 birds with 1 stone.

Go live in Russia then. In the States there is no such thing as someone not deserving their rights.

There's no death penalty in Russia.

People are denied rights in America all the time. They get accused of terrorism and end up in a CIA black site prison in some craphole like Uzbekistan and are never heard from again.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yea, I'd have to agree with that except the part of rehabilitation. Like I said, I've worked for years in and around the CJS and most rehabilitation is useless. Many try, but most fail.

originally posted by: Ohanka

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Perfectenemy
a reply to: Krazysh0t

That's the problem with the current justice system. Some people just don't deserve this kind of protection. Waste of space,time,money and ressources. Everything could be better spent to help the people who are genuinely interested to live and work in a civil society. I know my solution is coldhearted but our current system isn't working. The world is already overcrowded and we need to reduce the population in the near future. 2 birds with 1 stone.

Go live in Russia then. In the States there is no such thing as someone not deserving their rights.

There's no death penalty in Russia.

People are denied rights in America all the time. They get accused of terrorism and end up in a CIA black site prison in some craphole like Uzbekistan and are never heard from again.

Cool story bro.

originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yea, I'd have to agree with that except the part of rehabilitation. Like I said, I've worked for years in and around the CJS and most rehabilitation is useless. Many try, but most fail.

See. I'm basing my ideas off of what is being proven to work in Europe. I made that clear at the very beginning of my participation in the thread. I've posted an example of a country where where rehabilitation not only works, it has reduced the recidivism rate down to like 20%. We are currently in the high 70's if you didn't know.

Now clearly that 20% recidivism rate shows that not everyone can be rehabilitated, but I'd be MUCH happier with 20% of our prisoners relapsing rather than 70 to 80% of them.

a reply to: Justso
You can't expect the culture to change for you. You have to lead the change yourself.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Ohanka

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Perfectenemy
a reply to: Krazysh0t

That's the problem with the current justice system. Some people just don't deserve this kind of protection. Waste of space,time,money and ressources. Everything could be better spent to help the people who are genuinely interested to live and work in a civil society. I know my solution is coldhearted but our current system isn't working. The world is already overcrowded and we need to reduce the population in the near future. 2 birds with 1 stone.

Go live in Russia then. In the States there is no such thing as someone not deserving their rights.

There's no death penalty in Russia.

People are denied rights in America all the time. They get accused of terrorism and end up in a CIA black site prison in some craphole like Uzbekistan and are never heard from again.

Cool story bro.

Nah they totally don't exist, just right wing fake news I guess

Although I was wrong. Russia does in fact have the death penalty for:

murder, with certain aggravating circumstances (article 105.2)
encroachment on the Life of a Person Administering Justice or Engaged in a Preliminary Investigation (article 295)
encroachment on the Life of an Officer of a Law-enforcement Agency (article 317)
encroachment on the Life of a Statesman or a Public Figure (article 277)
genocide (section 357).

Of course there is Moratorium on the death penalty, and no execution sentences have been handed out or carried out in over a decade. The last ones were Chechen terrorists in the 90s If i recall correctly.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

(Facepalm)

Krazy.............last time I checked............THIS ISN'T EUROPE!

Have you ever been to Europe? I lived there. I wont attempt to outline the truth here but there's a significant and striking difference between what constitutes general population in Europe and the US.

And frankly.............you know that.

a reply to: Ohanka

Cool story bro.

PS: If you haven't noticed yet, I don't care as none of what you said has any baring on this thread.

a reply to: TonyS

So that means we can't recognize what works over there and try to duplicate it here? We have to try COMPLETELY different solutions with no similarities WHATSOEVER to anything being done in Europe?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Ohanka

Cool story bro.

PS: If you haven't noticed yet, I don't care as none of what you said has any baring on this thread.

Guess you're just gonna troll the thread with irrelevant non-statements.

a reply to: Aazadan

O.K., I'm officially confused here.

Your talking about not spending enough on the Courts systems and the CJS as a whole and a shortage of lawyers?

You must be talking from a Brit point of view?

In the US there's a super-abundance of Lawyers and the Criminal Justice systems consume so much money that its become an engine of economic recovery.

originally posted by: Ohanka

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Ohanka

Cool story bro.

PS: If you haven't noticed yet, I don't care as none of what you said has any baring on this thread.

Guess you're just gonna troll the thread with irrelevant non-statements.

I will if the responses to me have nothing to do with the thread topic. Don't get indigent with me because I refuse to follow your dumb tangent down off-topic lane.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

We don't disagree. But the question remains-how or will our culture change? That is the big question that doesn't seem to have an answer.

a reply to: Justso

That's a good question. I can only do my part. It's up to everyone else to come around on their own.

originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: Aazadan

O.K., I'm officially confused here.

Your talking about not spending enough on the Courts systems and the CJS as a whole and a shortage of lawyers?

You must be talking from a Brit point of view?

In the US there's a super-abundance of Lawyers and the Criminal Justice systems consume so much money that its become an engine of economic recovery.

No, I'm speaking from a US point of view. A lot of money flows through the court system, I'm not denying that. What I'm contesting is the idea of court appointed attorneys which end up representing people in most convictions. These lawyers are so overworked, that often times they can only spend minutes on each case and they have to plea everything, even when they know the person they're representing isn't guilty simply due to time constraints. Those lawyers are underpaid and overworked.

The problem is, our entire system runs on pleas these days. It's what allows state prosecutors to have 98% conviction rates, and it's what allows court appointed lawyers to get through their caseload. If you can afford to hire any private defense lawyer, even a bad one your chance of getting off skyrockets.

The current system preys on the poor, and throws them in prison on pleas. It's such a reliable system that it's effectively being run by cities as a for profit industry these days. The goal is no longer to reduce law breaking and get as few people into the system as possible, instead it's to get as many as possible into the system because they can collect money.

Some states, like Florida have done this to such an extent that they've effectively brought back debtor's prisons. Even if your court appointed lawyer gets you off on the charge, the state will bill you for the lawyer you couldn't afford, and then arrest you on contempt of court for not paying that fine.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Sure we can try that! Here's a good start!

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Houston-2 MS-13 Gang members, reported as illegal immigrants, (cant verify that), kidnap 2 teen girls, hold them for weeks then sacrifice them in Satanic rituals.

New York-thirteen members of the same Gang arrested for killing 3 High school Students.

Maybe, to ensure the experiment works correctly, we should export these guys to Finland, or Denmark or the Netherlands to be rehabilitated by the European system! Hell, this would make one great reality TV show.

To make my point, I honestly don't think they have much in the way of MS-13 in Holland. They don't have much of the gang shooters in Chicago.

I dunno...........maybe the quickest, cheapest best solution I've seen discussed is to decriminalize ALL the illicit drugs, Heroin, Meth, Cocaine, the whole lot of it. If the drugs were cheap and plentiful and easy to acquire, maybe that would defang the gangs.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Yes I kinda disagree with capital punishment.

But I will be frank.... I dont exactly have a strong view.

If it was reinstated in the UK for pedos and muderers I would hardly lose any sleep or even waste time writing a email in protest.

a reply to: TonyS

Jesus... I really don't even think I'm reaching you. For one, I already told you the first thing we need to do is deescalate the war on drugs, so your last paragraph was unnecessary. For two, we don't have to adopt EVERY policy they do in Europe. I was just suggesting that we could attempt some of their more successful ideas to fix many of our problems.

Do you like the fact that a kid can go to jail for shoplifting and come out 5 years later knowing how to steal identities? Do you like that jails function as a college for criminals? You are focused on the very worst, but those are the extremes. What about the ones who just screwed up once and landed in jail? Chances are they are career criminals now thanks to our #ed up system. And here you are ridiculing me because I want to implement systems to fix this #.

a reply to: Aazadan

Well, you're drop dead correct about the system being skewed to put MORE people in prison. No doubt about that and it has a lot to do with the "For Profit" prison companies. In Texas they take bids for the government on the basis of a minimum promised number of prisoners being incarcerated. The more prisoners, the less the companies charge per prisoner.

The problem with the court appointed lawyer system is less the lawyers than it is the "system" of laws. Criminal Law has become an administrative system and is less about "law" than it is about procedure. Put another way, there's very little "law" left to practice anymore in the CJS.