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originally posted by: SoulSurfer
a reply to: Seede
That is a very good question. And one that I have been pondering on because people say paul replaced Judas. But let's examine this a moment.
Jesus did not send him away, yet he knew Judas would betray him. Jesus did not personally choose Paul. He chose the original 12.
Jesus as God in the flesh already knew ahead of time that Judas would betray him, but he still chose him.
This scripture gives us a clue.
(John 6:70; see also 13:18.) “Did not I choose you, the Twelve?”
The question is, was Judas forgiven? And was Judas saved in the end? This question needs to be answered. But i still maintain that God does not go back on his word.
Judas was replaced with Matthias in Acts Chp. 1.
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
Paul does not meet the criteria to be an apostle. The criteria is in vs. 21 above.
In this case it is written that the eleven apostles cast their lots between two men who were recommended by themselves. In other words it was a closed group that decided all of this upon their own closed group of men who made their own rules. The first rule was that the men they would choose would be to their standards. The second rule would be that they themselves would choose the replacement. There was nothing involved that would show that the Holy Spirit actually did the choosing of the man.
Do we need Paul to be saved? Cause that's really what it seems people such as yourself or Chester seem to think. Or, do we all HAVE to believe the WHOLE bible as the truth (and accept Paul)....or we're going to miss the peace train to Heaven? Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I do appreciate you and your threads and posts but in this case I do have to disagree with the Paul nonsense that pricks the hearts of so many.
: What exactly happened to both Paul the apostle, and Paul McCartney?
originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: SoulSurfer
: What exactly happened to both Paul the apostle, and Paul McCartney?
Would that not depend upon ones belief? Of course we realize that both men are physically dead but then there are some that believe the spirit of people are not dead.
What does the bible say? Actually the bible does not tell us explicitly about either men. That is why we study the letters of the Prophets and Apostles in trying to understand the afterlife. That is if there is and afterlife. But to know what the afterlife of either Paul is, is not really clear.
What do I believe? I believe as, some science has revealed, that the mind is detached from the brain. The terrestrial brain of a person contains the receptors which control the terrestrial body. This brain is controlled by an energy source which is the mind. Both are one and yet both are independent. Now realize that I am not making this up but have read this in medical articles which I have not kept in file. This verifies that some do believe that the brain is physicality and the mind is an unknown energy source. What this source is, is the entire solution to afterlife.
Is this energy source [mind] the spirit of the terrestrial man and does this energy source have an independent structure assigned to each terrestrial body? Does the mind [spirit] have eternal consciousness or is it simply a terrestrial source of energy which is ever changing? Is the mind [spirit] of celestial substance or terrestrial substance? What does the bible say?
The bible tells us [through various scriptures] that this source of energy [mind] is an everlasting conscious independent entity and that it does indeed control the terrestrial brain. That is if the terrestrial receptors of the brain are not damaged or missing. This is not believed or revealed to most bible students and for that reason we have many doctrines of many denominations in religions.
Various apostles of Jesus tell us that both Paul's have met their death of the body and that their mind [spirit] have been judged as to their status in the afterlife. What that judgment of each men is, is not revealed but if either man has been judged righteous then that one, or both, will now be in the kingdom of heaven as a conscious source of energy and will then be given a new everlasting celestial body [covering].
But all of this is simply what I believe and there are probably millions of other theories of others which are just as important to them as mine is to me. Why do I believe science in this case? Because medical science does agree with the teachings of Jesus even though we have differences in words. The energy source [mind] is everlasting regardless of its worth to the Creator and in that respect I do believe that both Paul's have the same experience in death as do all people. Nevertheless it is not revealed to us where their containment is located.
Is this energy source [mind] the spirit of the terrestrial man and does this energy source have an independent structure assigned to each terrestrial body? Does the mind [spirit] have eternal consciousness or is it simply a terrestrial source of energy which is ever changing? Is the mind [spirit] of celestial substance or terrestrial substance? What does the bible say?
No. We need no man except the Christ Jesus to be saved and Paul has never written that we do.
Though when one brings such things up in a discussion with a Christian, things get ugly fast...
i've been insulted, degraded, called satan or a follower of... along with every name in the book by so called Christians
Why does it only have to be "what the bible says?" Is it because you hold it as the ultimate source of truth?? Cause, seems you also go to other sources for your "truth". Right? I mean, all those ancient theologians aren't in the bible, yet you hold their words as truth. Text
Why would a "loving Creator" design a world that needed such disgusting things? Do you know why? (oh, and the biblical answer via Paul is not good enough), lol.
originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor
Why would a "loving Creator" design a world that needed such disgusting things? Do you know why? (oh, and the biblical answer via Paul is not good enough), lol.
Well, I really don't have all the answers in life but here is what I believe. I believe that the Creator is not what I believed He was some years ago. This love thing is blown all out of proportion in that the Creator hates as well as loves. He is not all just love. If He were simply all love then He would not have created a hell. That is the main reason that many people don't believe in a hell. My understanding from religion is that the Creator is as hateful as He is loving. Is that bad? No it is not bad at all.
I had a dear old friend who passed away recently and we were childhood friends who always disagreed in theology. [Especially the bible] He came from a large Catholic family and I came from a large protestant and Jewish family. Really funny how life is when I look back on it. This friend of mine eventually became a protestant evangelical in his adult life and about the same time I became a student of Judaic Nazarene belief. Now that is hard to believe but hardly anyone could tell that change in both of us. I would have taken a bullet for that man and I am sure he would have done the same for me. We were brothers who became separated in WWII and after the war found ourselves living in Arizona and Nebraska. We sent weekly tapes to each other till he passed away.
My friend developed a bad heart and sent me a fair well tape several days before he died and in that tape he explained some things that he felt had to be said. He told me that he did not like me but that he loved me. He did not like me for messing around with his God but he loved me as a brother. I had never heard that said before and it floored me that anyone actually felt that way. My friend taught me that God is the same way. He loves us but He doesn't like us in many things that we do. That changed my life and as I sat one day reading one of your threads It came to me what my friend taught me. It taught me that Paul was a scoundrel and maybe God did not like what Paul did but that He loved Paul nevertheless. Is that what judgment is all about? Does God let us govern ourselves but does not like many of us but loves us anyway?
I don't see the glass as half empty. I see the glass as half full. I don't see death as the end but I see death as the beginning. God takes temporary life only to restore it with permanent life. We don't need philosophers but we need each other in this short trip that we are on. We may dislike what others do but at the same time we love them. We don't condemn them in judgment but learn to love them and share knowledge. Everything in the scriptures can be a lesson if we learn how to listen and love. Any way thanks for listening to an old guy. Didn't mean to preach. Just a thought.
God Bless
In a foot note -- In the literature of 2nd Enoch it is written that there is a great paddock in the celestial realm for all of the animal kingdom and that the Creator will judge the good from the evil in that kingdom also. The deer that you saw in death will have its day just as we shall have our day. I believe that to be true and it comforts me to believe that.