Does Heaven and Hell Exist?

I personally think so, and I even have a theory for it.

What is reality?

According to the physicist Carlo Rovelli, the universe is ruled by three basic principles

Granularity (i.e. particles)

Indeterminacy

Relationality (things only exist when they interact)

Regardless of how things operate on the smallest of scales, we are macroscopic beings built over evolutionary time - so its important to consider and remember what is being built up over evolutionary time:

atoms

. These elements of the natural world are the granular properties underlying planets and the events which unfold upon them - such as the evolution of the biosphere on earth, itself emerging as a function of the interaction between the geosphere, hydrosphere, and atmosphere.

All of this in all 3 spatial directions produces Earth, the trees we see, the life which forms, and the people whom we experience ourselves to be.

In short: the Universe is one whole, with countless numbers of atoms (elements) organizing themselves through space, which quantum gravity (combination of quantum mechanics and general relativity) conceives as a gravitational field made up of nodes which to one another, creating the area and volume of space. Of course, at all times, space remains the projection of the Earths gravitational field.

In any case, I mention this 'basic physics' to give you a sense of what sort of principles are operating here. We have granularity (atoms, or people); we have indeterminacy (electrons, or the choices we make); and we have relationality (between atoms, or Human beings).

The physics of reality comes up with the same sort of principles that operate between people: granularity (individuals) indeterminacy (possibility for choice); and relationality (the we mutually trigger affective dynamics in one another). Is this coincidence?

Reality Matters, Humans make things matter

Again the parallels between the quantum reality and Human reality shine forth, but this time in matter itself. Evolution is essentially matter "carving out structure" by making meaningful it's relationships to the world around it. The physicist Karen Barad's concept of a dynamical quantum system can be extrapolated towards molecular systems as well as biological systems. Additionally, the theory of life researcher Camelo Castillo's emphasis on symmetry - in structure or time, or both - in the material structure of an organism, links the idea of coherency, "mattering", and the physical matter of an actual organism. As Frederic Stjernfelt has written, organisms are literal natural propositions. The universe etching out meaning across the vastness of space. Indeed - the Earth provides not just the material of our body's, but the very space we move through is a construction of its gravitational weightiness.

If you were to turn back time

The construction of matter entails symmetry; only those interactions which support a more complex organization of structure (i.e. symmetry) are "naturally selected". Structure is everywhere - in stones, in water, in trees. But some structure is dynamic - moving - in ways very different from the inorganic world, and yet reminiscent of that world in that symmetry is similarly implicated in the stability of the organization.

Cells, multic-cellular organisms - slime molds, slugs, mollusks, sharks, etc: this is a process of semiosis, of interpretation, and 'of accumulating matter' through a process of discovering new interactions that matter. It is perfectly reasonable to conceive Human evolution as nature discovering pathways - each time fitted to the needs of the moment - that became more and more complex as the zig-zagging across the natural world - the forests of Africa, in the case of Hominids - passed some important threshold that enabled the accumulation of more structure.

Humans are not dinosaurs, which is to say, unlike them, we've increased not in size - which they remain natures winner - but in "interiorization" - where the moral implications of natures mode of becoming is implicated within the experience of the Hominid, and with each progression in understanding cause and effect in its experience, its entangles into its structure more neurological complexity - and the 'object' - the lived environmental situation, the words used, the ideas thought - these too become entangled.

Remember: it's all just atoms becoming entangled in new a different configurations. The atoms "mark" the entanglement, as each atom - each granule helping to construct a Human being (10 octillion atoms, or 28 zeros, make up the Human being) remains 'etched' by the "other" system in the environment - the other Human who in turn was 'etched' by someone else.

The process underlying the construction of Humans is clear, and I've posted this image many times to get this point across:

I made this awhile ago and I still agree with its basic thrust. Before we speak, we are designed by evolutionary processes for our brains to prec-onsciously select material that will make me feel most coherent in this particular moment of time-space (environment) I am in. Human thinking is just the end part of an informational process, which is why Jesper Hoffmeyer, an important philosopher-biologist, describes consciousness as a "carrier wave" that becomes determinative upon the dynamics of the body - a "formative influence" vis a vis the efficient causality of the body's "dissipative" structuring.

So does heaven and hell exist?

It seems to me life entangles us in meaningful interactions, and these interactions are unavoidably apart of everything that we are.

Furthermore, there seems to be an additional 'level' arising from the body, as if a mist arising from vast swarm of energy. This swarm "hosts" us - our souls, or identity, or feeling relations to the reality we relate to and become entangled with.

If one simply reflects upon ones experience, Vygostky's claim that inner experience derives from actual interactions with others reflects very much the 'swarm' like processes of quantum mechanics, molecular biology, and the functioning of our bodies. Not just that: but the perspectival function switches from the other (how they see the world) to ourselves (how we see the world), without us ever recognizing that we are regenerating the exact same dynamics inside ourselves (our experience) in the exact same way as the others we become positively identified with.

Only a person chained to the cultural patterns of experiencing-their-self can fail to note the obvious interpenetration of our beings - of our feelings, our thinking, our musculature, our body language, our feeling-relations: if I see shame in you, my mirror neurons compel an embodied enactment of that state: my body begins mirroring you, and why?

Because We Are The Same Phenomenon.

edit on 27-2-2017 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-2-2017 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)

a reply to: Astrocyte

Personally I think there is a holding zone in the afterlife.

Here's how my theory go:

You die. However, instead of going straight to heaven or hell, you go into what I see is a some sort holding zone for spirits which is an exact replica of our world. There your supposed to reflect on past crimes/wrongdoings and find redemption. If you do, you go to heaven. However, if you remain unrepentant of your wrongdoings, then you go to hell. It doesn't matter your race, religion etc. what matters is you find redemption for wrongdoings.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Heaven and Hell - this is just religions treating people like kids, its a bit like telleing kids if they go out in the dark the boogie man will get them. Its done frighten people and also to control them.

When we die we go back into the next world where we come from

The only hell there is; is this world. if you like hevan is the next world which is where we come from.

All this heaen and hell stuff as is put around is just kids stuff applied to adults for the purppose of controlling their mind hence their behaviour.

Sure they do, if you have the eyes to see them.

You'll find the hells below the churches that include the idea in their cosmology.

The American ones are quaint affairs, just a purgatory and hell that sinners can walk out if if they only realised.

The ones in old Europe are grand affairs. When examined you find a huge female figure buried up to her waist at the location. She has human physiology and also a magical air about her. She is not there by choice.

She is held in place by "levels" that each have a chamber with four doors linking to other similar physical buildings in other physical locations.

Her private parts invaded, as part of the various levels of hell. Remember that the womb is a creative universe in it's own right.

This is the energetic structure around which doctrines are woven.

The heaven is higher up her spine and beyond.

Her eyes stare transfixed into the light of heaven.

She suffers terribly . . .

heaven and hell ?

Well I don't know. But the real problem is the nature of Reality. Is it something completely independent of the observer or can the observer influence it. It the latter is the case Heaven and also hell become a reality too.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Here is an internet goody from the early
days in response to your thread.
This is the best I can do right now,
so humor me here.

Let us imagine Hell exists.

For starters, lets modify your question to :

Is Hell exothermic or endothermic?


So let us get down to business.

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time.
So, we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and
the rate they are leaving.
I think we can safely assume that once a soul arrives in Hell,
it will be unable to leave.
Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, let us look at the different
religions that exist in the world today.
Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their
religion, you will go to Hell.
Since there are more than one of these religions and since people
generally do not belong to more than one religion, if any,
we can project that all people and all souls go to Hell.

With birth rates and death rates as they are, we can expect
the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we must look at the rate of change of the volume of Hell
because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature
and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to
expand as souls are added.
This gives us two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate that souls enter
Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase
until All Hell Breaks Loose.
2. Of course,if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase
of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until
Hell Freezes Over.

So, which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. Janet Henry during my
freshman year ,that ,"It will be a cold night in Hell before I sleep with you",
and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having
sexual relations with Ms. Henry, then, #2 cannot be true, and thus,
I am sure that Hell is exothermic.
S&F

a reply to: Astrocyte

I'm confused, where in the op have you shown 1) any definition of heaven/hell or 2) answered the question of whether they exist or not?

I'm not sure that heaven and hell exist...Not saying they don't just not sure yet.

I agree with another poster on the (holding zone) idea, that could be why we have ghosts on earth etc, between worlds.

If good and bad exist within people, then i suppose a heavenly/good and hell/bad places could exist after death.

a reply to: Azureblue

so you and Hitler are equal?
both of you are going to heaven?

so a person gets to do what ever he wants in this life and still goes to heaven? well that's unfair

Here is mathematical proof that the Kabbalistic blueprint called the Tree of Life, the Tantric representation of Creation called the Sri Yantra, the five Platonic solids & the dodecahedron geometrically represent seven cosmic planes of consciousness:
smphillips.mysite.com...
(other areas of this website provide the conceptual and mathematical background needed to understand this section).

All levels of reality are mathematically mapped by 91 Trees of Life. Space-time (physical universe) is the manifestation of the lowest seven of these Trees of Life. The so-called "afterlife" (Trees 8-15/17) is merely a subdomain of the cosmic domain; it is the arena for those stages of evolving life that need at intervals to reincarnate im material bodies; the afterlife is a series of levels that is the natural home of ego-dominated personality. There are transpersonal levels of consciousness far beyond the Christian "heaven" which Buddhists call Nirvana where consciousness is no longer subject to Karma and the need to reincarnate. The levels BEYOND the "afterlife" extend into non-dual levels of cosmic consciousness. All these levels have now been shown to be mapped in a similar, isomorphic manner by the sacred geometries of various world religions. This is no longer a matter of belief or faith. It is now a mathematically established fact that can be proved with as much rigour as any geometrical axiom in Euclid's Elements. Evidence connecting these isomorphic representations of all levels of reality to the discoveries of professional mathematicans and theoretical physicists has now accumulated in sufficient quantities to establish them (and therefore the notion of an afterlife) as having irrefutable, scientific support. Please study the research at the website linked to above.

Hard to say if no definition of terms was presented.

Hell/heaven exist as idea on several levels at least in christian and islamic cultures. Taoists also have something as hell.

If I could define those terms:

heaven is good ad infinitum
hell is bad ad infinitum

So we have to know what is infinity and what is good and bad ...

a reply to: Astrocyte

There are 10 dimensions. The 10th is absolute oneness, containing all that can and has ever existed by archetype. Call this the mind of God. Below, there are three states of perfection akin to the Trinity of Christian faith and the Hindu Trimurti. You can reference the three by following one cross-section of our reality. Polytopes are infinite in 2 dimensions. There are 5 in three dimensions. Six in 4 dimensions. In all higher dimensions, there are three only.



Heaven represents the MIND in three perfections. Like a tree grows, so the mind is folded thought, branched thought and line. Trees come from an enfolded seed, so the process is opposite. Line, branch and fold of fruit again into the essence where it starts.

9D - Mind Fold

8D - Mind Branch

7D - Mind Line of thinking

______________
TIME

6D - Fold of Time from line of mind

5D - Branch of Time from fold of time

4D - Line of Time

_________________
FORM

3D - Fold of Form

2D - Branch of Form

1D - Line of Form

The way to see Heaven is by noting that all dimensions in linear mathematics are at right angles (orthogonal). Just as your shadow is a 2D plane, so your body is the shadow of the timeline. All dimensions below 4 are shadows of the three perfections above, each divided into the parts below. We are all shadows of our higher mind inside the Trinity. The overall three sections of Mind, Time and Form are the Hindum Triloka.

MIND - Goodness

TIME - Passion

FORM - Ignorance

If you want more, there are many other terms from Hinduism that tell the rest of the story. Simply ask. Heaven is a state of mind in goodness (enlightened). Hell is ignorance (below that of passion). We are never separated from the three states at all times. Where you choose to live is by your virtues. Absolute oneness with God comes to all of us at the same time (Resurrection). For now, we are all born again (rebirth, not resurrected to Higher Perfected Body). This body is simply an egg. It's another womb. Metamorphosis happens for each of us at the same time. Birth in the final stage is collective. Cause and effect for now. Reap and Sow for the time we all meet on the other side of the image (beyond the gate of the 10th).

a reply to: Wildmanimal

Hahah clever! I like that

My own take is simply that all things are energy, the energy released when we die goes back to the source of all the energy (whatever it is) and is then re-used so someone's energy could be used to make a tree or part of someone's energy could be used to make another human. I think when this happens, this is why people occasionally remember "past lives", I don't think its a past life of theirs I think its remanants of the energy of the previous persons life that went to create the new person. This is why these "past life memories" disappear over time as we grow and get older and our brains & memories get fuller.

Heaven & Hell? Its what you make of it on earth

a reply to: Astrocyte

Love is heaven.

All things that stand in contradiction to Love is hell. The church teaches condemnation of others for belief not actions and this creates hell on earth as condemnation stands in opposition to Love.

Heaven and Hell are higher and lower states of the mind. Only the mind who lives in loving harmony with themselves and others lives in heaven. All others live in hell.

Sometimes heavenly souls are dragged through hell by suffering in the sorrows of a broken world. These souls who long for heaven but see mostly hell in the world are Bodhisattva.

Those who escape the sorrow of living in the earthly hell created by arrogance, ignorance, hate and condemnation can obtain Nirvana. To obtain Nirvana one must realize the course of humanity follows an enlightened path into it's own death, and one can only control what it has been presented with.

I believe more in a homebase of exsistence than I do a heaven and hell, because of the concept of a deity watching all this insanity unfold for eons is too idiotic to comprehend.

I understand what christian doctrines were trying to teach but the very premise of the whole concept is more giving ability to evil than giving ability to good than I can ever see.

It basically says to ignore evil as it will be handled, but that's not the case, evil doesn't get handled unless we end it ourselves in some form.

We have to be the change we seek, don't look up to a deity to do that for you, we are that deity, I'd much rather of been taught how we are together god than god being separate.

Hell would be the most wasteful place ever known to anything, I mean, a place where everyone suffers? isn't that just being poor on earth? Or being low on the food chain?

How would hell compare to being tortured for information or beaten daily by an abusive husband but unable to leave because he is a cop and you have kids that would go to him if you spoke up because no one believes you?

How does heaven even touch the lifestyles WE KNOW the rich live EVERY SINGLE DAY?!?!

Trying to tell me that heaven would be better than their lives? Even an hour in some of these rich families would equal months of your time.

Things have never seemed legit here and I think that's the whole reason we're always misled, keep us guessing so we don't have all the facts and can't be so upset we revolt...

I think that's the underlying issue, we know there is more, a better more but we for whatever reason don't have it, but we can feel it.

And to add:

I have love in my heart, I love everyone even the shighty folks, because we're all human and we all are the sum of our experiences, some don't have the best experiences to draw off of and make bad choices, you don't hate that, you understand it and love the person inside regardless, that's forgiveness, that's love.

But even saying that, this world is horrible, throw aside the fact there are good and evil people, it's the inequality on so many levels that pisses me off.

It's the clamoring about a religion this or god that and here we still all are, regardless our religions, genders, races, suffering the same inequalities while just having money lets you negate all of it.

That's bullshat!@

That to me is pure evil, that to me is pure hate.

a reply to: DayAfterTomorrow
If something is perfect then it can only exist in one, perfect state. Not three. "Perfection" means it requires absolutely no changes in and of itself: if something is perfect, there is nothing to change.

It is absurd to state that something can be perfect but requires three different states. None of those states would be perfect; they would (or could) merely be components of an ultimate, perfect state that is and must be a Unity. But on their own, they cannot be perfect.

In other words, you are talking utter nonsense and (in my humble opinion) you have no concept of what "perfection" really is.

I await your response with great interest.

a reply to: Astrocyte
Atoms are not fundamental. Even the various sub-atomic particles we know of may not be fundamental. Atoms are not (within the conceptual form you are using) "elements". I fully understand you do not mean this in the same way as "elements" in the periodic table, but even so, they are not "elements". So to ascribe any fundamental properties of our universe to to atoms as some kinds of absolutes is erroneous.

To say that "space remains the projection of the Earths [sic] gravitational field" is also erroneous. "Space" extends far beyond our own small planet's field of gravitation, by billions of light years, so how can (for example) objects in space that are many light years away be projections of our own small planet's gravitational field? That's the kind of Earth-centric thinking that existed centuries ago and which has long since been shown to be unsupportable.

In short, you are spouting nonsense and I sincerely doubt you have even considered how ridiculous your statements are and how they simply do not relate to reality.

I would be very interested in your arguments in support of your statements. I hope you have some, because what you have stated is frankly laughable and meaningless.

a reply to: JustMike

I like what you said, it totally makes sense.

Heaven is through a white hole. Hell is through a black hole.

We came from Heaven. The cosmos is not the branches of Eden, it is the root system of the fallen angel posing as a being of light. .


I submit that the reincarnation system is so well known that it is grafted as something else into all pervert religion of the Whore, as the ultimate joke on the divided Adamite soul.

a reply to: Astrocyte

In my experience, No.