Judge stops transgender female from seeing her children who live in an Ultra-Orthodox Community

a reply to: OneGoal

Now you're denying medicine again like Kayla likes to.

I know these 'facts' aren't in line with your thinking but they're facts none the less.

OCD people do NOT physically act on their compulsions, it's in their mind. Go watch all the OCD people on YouTube they'll tell you all about it, or better yet listen to the PHD's (those nasty educated people) who say time and time again that the thoughts OCD people deal with are abhorrent to them.




In case the link doesn't work again.
www.youtube.com...

This case is pretty simple, the father ceased to be the children's parent when he changed his gender.

He/She is no longer the same person he/she was when "the he" fathered the children.

Since he/she is now a different person, with different gender, and new identity, this new person has no rights to the children at all.

It is as if a "soul" reincarnated into a new body, then came around claiming that all the old contacts and friendships should remain respected and acknowledged, even though that "soul" had taken on a new identity.

The mother has complete rights to deny that the new "she" person have contact with her kin, on the same grounds that a reincarnated soul would have no such rights.

a reply to: DISRAELI

What happens when the "rights" of two different minorities come into conflict?

In this scenario we have religious indoctrination of children on one hand and secular liberal indoctrination on the other.

In a wider context we have the ECHR charter which states that religious belief is a human right but the manifestation of that belief is not, particularly when it undermines or infringes on the rights of others. The manifestation of religious belief if subject to appropriate laws.

a reply to: Joneselius

Believe what you want to i suppose, but you are making assumptions about me and my beliefs that are off the mark regarding the efficacy and importance of modern medicine and the psychiatric community.

I also dont think your assesment is entirely accurate about these disorders and how they can manifest.

a reply to: Joneselius

The suicide rate post surgery is usually due to the continued harassment, bullying, abuse, abandonment of family, etc.

Preliminary studies show that young people who transition early with the approval of their families, who can live their lives as the gender they identify with without the general public even knowing their birth sex - lead much happier, healthier lives.

a reply to: Joneselius

Gender dysphoria is not OCD.

a reply to: reboot23


Lot of assumptions going on there. Firstly I am homosexual. Secondly in my career as a critical care nurse I have looked after many post-operative transgender females in post-anaesthetic care. Thirdly this case was published in most UK news media. Fourthly topics like this are very relevant in contemporary society. Fifthly I mainly post in the social issues and civil unrest forum as I find the subject matter interesting. And lastly my threads do not garner flags and stars. If this is what motivates me I would have given up a long time ago.

a reply to: kaylaluv

I didn't say it was, I said the opposite.

a reply to: OneGoal

I know right, it's not like I've been suffering with it for the last 21 years........

Come off it.

This isn't what I believe and if you'd done even a cursory investigation into OCD you'd know that. This is the truth. You're wrong.

originally posted by: Joneselius

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: dashen

There are mental illnesses where someone might think they want to be an opposite gender, such as schizophrenia. But schizophrenia involves many other symptoms that distinguish it from true gender dysphoria. A mental health professional can tell the difference. The treatment for schizophrenia is anti-psychotic meds, which helps the symptoms of the psychosis. The treatment for gender dysphoria does NOT involve anti-psychotic meds (as they don't help the dysphoria at all), but instead involves encouraging the person to make whatever physical changes that will alleviate the dysphoria.

Except that doesn't work either, the suicide rate goes UP post op.

What's your point?

41% suicide rate after a sex change is pretty serious.

originally posted by: Morrad

The children are a boy aged 12 (A), twin boy and girl aged 8 (B and C), a boy aged 5 (D) and a girl aged 2 (E).
The birth mother's argument is that the children would be ostracised by their ultra-orthodox community and unable to live normal lives due to their association with a transgender parent.

Consider >>>>

If the situation is traumatic for the *adults* concerned and their community

consider the trauma of young children who, related to both a mother and

father suddenly being confronted by two mothers wondering where their

father had gone to??

The birth father's argument is that the community's opposition should be confronted and challenged legally. The birth father believes the threat of the children being marginalised should not trump her right to see her children.

His argument is so totally selfish he wants a legal challenge on his rights

he's not so much interested in the probability of his children being marginalised.

He's much more interested in HIS rights.

He was their father, he brought them into this world as their father ..... as a

parent he owes them!

The birth mother responded stating that it was unfair to expect the children to bear the impact of their father’s decision to become a woman.

I am in full agreement with her.

The Children’s Act (1989) states that the welfare of a child is the court’s ‘paramount consideration’. This is now the governing force behind all family law cases

Theres no arguing with that..... the court is carrying out its duty.

The judge, in this case, also had to consider provisions of the Equality Act, which say that no one can be unfairly discriminated against because of their gender, and the child’s right to ‘preserve his or her identity’, under Article 8 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

The father changed his gender in *the middle of the game* as it were?

IMO the childrens rights are paramount.

Reading through the actual court judgement, which I have linked below, the judge respected and was acutely aware of both the right for religious expression and the rights of transgender individuals. The ruling was based solely on a probability that the children, along with their birth mother, would be rejected by their community if the children were to have face-to-face contact with the father.

a reply to: jkm1864

At follow-up, 32 patients had completed sex reassignment surgery, five were still in process, and five—following their own decision—had abstained from genital surgery. No one regretted their reassignment. The clinicians rated the global outcome as favorable in 62% of the cases, compared to 95% according to the patients themselves, with no differences between the subgroups. Based on the follow-up interview, more than 90% were stable or improved as regards work situation, partner relations, and sex life, but 5–15% were dissatisfied with the hormonal treatment, results of surgery, total sex reassignment procedure, or their present general health. Most outcome measures were rated positive and substantially equal for MF and FM.

link.springer.com...

a reply to: eletheia

Wonder what the children want?

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: eletheia

Wonder what the children want?

At 2yrs, 5 yrs and 8 yrs I would imagine they want what ALL children want

a Mummy and a Daddy.

You know, this person is their Father (the person who fathered them), and unless it presents a danger to the children, his/her rights should not be taken. Now, I am no UK legal expert, but this seems to be a community court (which I have severe issues with) case controlled by religious zealots and even the religious leaders say the father should see his kids (no matter his sexual or gender preferences). So, if the religious leaders do not see a problem, why should anyone else. This type of ruling will do nothing except for serve as an example of how intolerable and hateful this community is.

a reply to: eletheia

So you think the kids all of a sudden hate this parent and no longer want to see her? At 8, 5 and 2? Does that love just stop?

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: eletheia

So you think the kids all of a sudden hate this parent and no longer want to see her? At 8, 5 and 2? Does that love just stop?

When its difficult for adults to get their head around, you expect pre school

and just started school children to assimilate whats going on? Its hard enough

explaining death to those so young, never mind recognising a trans father.

a reply to: eletheia

That's what therapy is for.

The Guardian's assessment in the court papers





The judge believed the children would most likely adapt to their father becoming a Transgender female. He based is ruling purely on the preservation of the children's identities eg community, schooling, friends and how this would be impacted if they had contact with the birth father.

It is clear from the birth father's testimony that she has suffered lifelong conflict between her religious beliefs and gender dysphoria which resulted in depression. At times she managed to suppress her true identity from prolonged high intensity preying. There was consequent breakdown in the marriage. She had agreed to supervised meetings and had requested guidance on how to reduce emotional impact on her children.

eletheia I apologise for losing it in our last meeting and the personal attack. There are reasons why I acted like that although they are not related to your comments.

I have only two comments.

1) Religion sucks, especially extreme ones.

and

2) People that say stupid things are stupid.

Myths About Transition Regrets

Surgical regret is actually very uncommon. Virtually every modern study puts it below 4 percent, and most estimate it to be between 1 and 2 percent (Cohen-Kettenis & Pfafflin 2003, Kuiper & Cohen-Kettenis 1998, Pfafflin & Junge 1998, Smith 2005, Dhejne 2014). In some other recent longitudinal studies, none of the subjects expressed regret over medically transitioning (Krege et al. 2001, De Cuypere et al. 2006).

These findings make sense given the consistent findings that access to medical care improves quality of life along many axes, including sexual functioning, self-esteem, body image, socioeconomic adjustment, family life, relationships, psychological status and general life satisfaction. This is supported by the numerous studies (Murad 2010, De Cuypere 2006, Kuiper 1988, Gorton 2011, Clements-Nolle 2006) that also consistently show that access to GCS reduces suicidality by a factor of three to six (between 67 percent and 84 percent).

Keep in mind the vast majority of transgender people, between 70% to 90% depending on what study is used, do NOT undergo sex reassignment surgery.

The Truth About Transgender Suicide

Y'all stop trying to pass off personal opinions as facts. It is unbecoming and makes you look ignorant.