Is a Universal Basic Income(UBI) coming?

a reply to: Serdgiam

Ahh, I see and can agree with some aspects of what you are saying. But then again will a decentralized system keep things cheap? I suspect not. I think we are far to reactive instead of preventative. I mean, wanna solve immigration....fix why they left their country. I should imagine it's a lot cheaper to. This could certainly solve a bit of the decentralization.

If you think about it though, and this is why I think this time is different, the aircraft and auto industries are the last of the well paid, mega people hiring industries. Ones that could support a middle class lifestyle. Nobody is even modeling a business idea with lots of employees in mind. People are indeed inventive, but, not on a scale to keep up with the jobs being lost.

originally posted by: Neith
Lets say this really takes place and robots take over 75% of all jobs.

Those who haven't a job, will be forced to reinvent themselves and create products the 'robotic industry' can't. Personalized products, things you can't buy from a store will become the new Vogue thing to do.

If people invest the money they're given, wisely, they'll come up with something. People are inventive, they will always come up with an idea no one's heard of or if changed enough will appear new. People in the future may even rebel against the Industry and bring it to it's knees.

Seems you, lakenheath and others are fixated on the idea that only "THINGS" have value. That the only legitimate endeavor is the 'production' of THINGS.

Time for a rethink, imho.

a reply to: soficrow

Well unless you are going to pay someone for their thoughts, then what else is their to fixate on?
You could barter, but that is exchanging things. EVERYTHING of value is a thing. Food, water, only air is free.

We are past the manufacturing age, and have entered this new age, so perhaps my pea-brain just can' grasp any other concept. It is going to be extraordinarily difficult to replace something thousands of years old.

a reply to: lakenheath24

Not at all. For example, time and caring have value but are not 'things.' You yourself have suggested 'charity work' that might involve such commitments. Also, many art forms involve creations that are not 'things,' or permanent, and are nonetheless valuable. ...Just off the top of my head.


Of interest (not a great article, but not bad)...

Your Most-Pressing Universal Basic Income Questions Answered

a reply to: lakenheath24

Thanks for the great thread.

The concept came up over lunch with my Dad today.

He felt this was the best opportunity to avoid unnecessary war and civil conflict moving forward. Dad thought that as the idea gained momentum in different countries it would help to temper corporations and the 1% shifting countries in search of cheap resources at the expense society and the environment.

He favoured the use of flat tax rates in conjunction with this.

I asked if him if he thought the 1% would go along with that, and he suggested they may end up like King 16th, if they don't (lol).How much money could someone spend in a lifetime anyways?

So many good points raised in this thread. I like the idea because all the variables can be tweaked. UBI could even encourage people living in more natural lifestyles.

July 30, 2017

This idea is gaining steam once again...

""Tesla (TSLA) CEO Elon Musk and Facebook (FB) CEO Mark Zuckerberg are among those who say universal basic income, or UBI, is a good idea. With inequality widening, the idea of an unconditional, periodic cash payment that the government makes to everyone has suddenly become a hot topic.

The idea is whether a person is unemployed or wealthy, a $1,000 monthly government check could replace all current welfare programs, including Social Security.

"I think it would theoretically be superior to the existing social welfare system," Michael Tanner, senior fellow at the Cato Institute, told CNBC's "On The Money" in an interview. "It would be more efficient. It would be more humane and it would be a lot less.. "

Full Article: www.msn.com... &ocid=spartanntp

originally posted by: carewemust
July 30, 2017

This idea is gaining steam once again...

""Tesla (TSLA) CEO Elon Musk and Facebook (FB) CEO Mark Zuckerberg are among those who say universal basic income, or UBI, is a good idea. With inequality widening, the idea of an unconditional, periodic cash payment that the government makes to everyone has suddenly become a hot topic.

The idea is whether a person is unemployed or wealthy, a $1,000 monthly government check could replace all current welfare programs, including Social Security.

"I think it would theoretically be superior to the existing social welfare system," Michael Tanner, senior fellow at the Cato Institute, told CNBC's "On The Money" in an interview. "It would be more efficient. It would be more humane and it would be a lot less.. "

Full Article: www.msn.com... &ocid=spartanntp

So the thought is if you are doing ok (middle-upper middle-high) this is more of a refund check for what you paid in? However, how much more taxes are they going to take? Should I just quit working since it might not even be worth it at some level? What happens when everyone who doesn't see the value in working quits and less money is coming into the UBI fund?

That is my thinking based on past and present experiments in socialism. However, as automation kills jobs then what can you do? The curent education system is not producing what the market needs and their is nothing big to replace the car industry. It will require a worldwide paradigm shift and we see what globalazation is doing!


a reply to: Throes

originally posted by: muSSang

Now with UBI who pays for that?

No one pays for UBI. It's UBI that pays everyone.

if no ones working how can we purchase or pay taxes?

There's no need for taxes. The whole tax thing is just a game.

Now this is why machines will NEVER replace people.

Machines are replacing people all the time. It's just that the replacement process isn't complete yet.

There's only one true "currency" in the world, and it's called "energy."

Long ago, you needed human labor, because the physical "energy" of a person was required to do "work."

A "portion" of a person's "output" from that "work" was collected by the King, or Church, or whatever.

Nowadays, much of the "work" is being done by machines. When a machine does the work, there's nobody to tax.

But, you still get the "output".

Nevertheless, if nobody can "purchase" the "output" from the machines, then all the product will start filling up the stockhouses, and the machines will have to shut down.

So, you must "give" the people the money, for them to be able to "buy" the "output" from the "machines."

You can't just give the output directly to the people, because that would lead to "waste."

People would start to take things they don't really need, just because its "free."

Since all these things are produced from scarce resources, ultimately dug up from the earth, you need some way to "allocate resources" according to what is "useful" and "necessary."

Hence, you still have to use money.

By giving everyone a "fixed" amount of "UBI cash", they will then use that to tell the machines what they really want the machines to produce.

If you haven't noticed, yet, the "taxes" doesn't run the governments in the 1st world nations.

If governments were restricted to just their "tax revenues" then all these 1st world nations would collapse.

The US has trillions of dollars in debt, because it doesn't use "taxes" to run government operations.

Only local governments, like your city or town, actually operate from their tax revenue base. And that is only for "small" towns or cities. Once the city is large enough, they find "taxes" isn't sufficient, so they too go into "debt."

All "debt" is, is a "promise".

So, much of the world is being run on "a promise", not actual "tax revenues."

So, we already have massive UBI, except only the governments get "paid UBI", for the most part.

Right now, the governments get "UBI", then they parcel it out to the people, in the form of government jobs, goverment contracts, food stamps, investing in business, giving tax credits, etc..

In the future, the people will get UBI directly, instead of the roundabout method that is current practice.

That is probably the most sensible thing i have ever read on the subject. So effectively though....would such a system kill entrepaneurship or progress? It seems that the biggest leaps in evolution have come through mass chaos or war. I have looked and all countries are in debt so its just a smoke and mirrors game really.
a reply to: AMPTAH

originally posted by: coop039

originally posted by: mclarenmp4
a reply to: coop039

The thing is you already pay for those type of people through the social programs, so why not get rid of those programs and give everyone UBI. Everyone gets the same, so there's no animosity.
If people want to live the bare minimum then so be it, they are no longer a burden on society.
A lot of people turn to crime just to make ends meet, take that burden away and some people may not feel the need to go down that route.

What happens when the number of people getting UBI exceeds the amount taxed on the working people? Sooner or later people will get tired of paying for others to do nothing.

What are you talking about man? This economy is already inflated and mostly ran by numbers on computers. That's what money has become. If you think that every dollar is accounted for in a perfect economic system you're more confused than the average person about how things are done on this planet.