Dark matter in the body (hypothesis)

I watched "The Dark Matter Enigma" episode of the "How The Universe Works" series.

Towards the end of the episode, a scientist states that the popular WIMP particle theory of dark matter might be wrong, since years of attempts to find it have come up with nothing. As an opposing theory, another scientist suggests that dark matter may actually interact with itself, meaning that it may build dark atoms, and therefore dark structures, and maybe even "dark people" (please, no religious or demon/angel references--take it to the religious board). There is even new data being studied that suggests dark matter really does interact with itself, after observing the collision of two galaxies. Since dark matter is now theorized to be the scaffolding of galaxy clusters, it makes me wonder if the human body has a dark matter scaffolding, too.

To be clear, I'm NOT talking about the biology theory of Biological Dark Matter. Biological Dark Matter is just a nickname used for "junk DNA". "Junk DNA" doesn't appear to be junk, either, as Alisa Lehman, a Stanford University Biology Ph.D. points out in this article.

To get back on point, while dark matter does not appear to readily interact with our regular matter, they do, at a minimum, interact on a gravitational level. That is, dark matter is not seen, nor illuminated, by regular matter electro-magnetics (light, electricity, magnetism). However, there does appear to be some relationship between matter and dark matter.

As an aside, we don't know the properties of dark matter, yet. Dark matter might be as dynamic as regular matter, even giving off a "dark light". We have ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF OF THIS, but it is worth mentioning, because we may find this to be true. And if there is another form of complex darkmatter-darkmatter interactions, there may also be a set of darkmatter-matter interactions.

This is why I want to hypothesize that, if dark matter is complex, and if dark matter has darkmatter-matter interactions, then our bodies may have a "dark matter body" scaffolding. In turn, this could give rise to a number of oddities related to our biology and possibly our human experience.

I find it interesting because, in several decades, scientists may look back at our generation and think about how "in the dark" we are about the fundamental nature of ourselves. We may literally only have a fraction of the picture.

From: en.wikipedia.org...

The standard model of cosmology indicates that the total mass–energy of the universe contains 4.9% ordinary matter, 26.8% dark matter and 68.3% dark energy.

The complexity of matter within our bodies, the potential complexity of dark matter, and then the total complexity of the interactions between the two, could dramatically change our understanding of what it means to be human... to live, to die, to love, to breathe... everything. You will never be able to look into a mirror and truly see your whole self. Knowing that can definitely change one's perspective.

Dark lives matter?

Is talking about these dark people politically correct, they may be a minority.

a reply to: Protector

Is the implication then that dark matter could account for what has previously been called a soul? Just asking, not sure if that is the idea, but of course it has to be asked.

a reply to: Protector

Knowing that can definitely change one's perspective.

Indeed. Along with how far out a freeking huge this place is yet how deep and endlessly small from our vantage. Yet there is a great chance the many will just turn, bend over and drag their knuckles as they walk back into the forest.

originally posted by: rickymouse
Dark lives matter?

Is talking about these dark people politically correct, they may be a minority.

By the power of greyskull that made me laugh

I guess if they start protesting, we can call then lumps of coal. You know, as opposed to snowflakes.

And we can say "You seem upset, who put a lump of coal in your stocking for Christmas?"

On topic... it does make some sort of sense, in that the universe is not excluded from the Earth. We are not isolated from what ever else is out there simply because we see a blue sky and don't suffocate. This bubble we exist within doesn't do much more than a bubble under water, light can still shine through it, as well as the darkness.

It always makes me giggle when people say "I want to go into space." -- You're already in Space. The sad thing is, we're reliant on this pale blue stone in a vast empty region, like a fish is to water. And yet we are still bombarded with the particles and phenomenon that we detect with devices and gadgets. Little invisible things are constantly shooting right through is, ever so slightly affecting our dna.

Thanks for that, Sun... Oo

Jack Daniels in the body. Nothing new.

a reply to: Protector

if dark matter has darkmatter-matter interactions

There are many good reasons to think dark matter does not interact with normal matter. What we're less certain about is whether dark matter can interact with its self. Scientists are hopeful that they will find evidence of self-interacting dark matter because it can help solve a few important problems such as the dwarf galaxy problem and cuspy halo problem. A few years ago cold dark matter was all the rage, but new docos like The Dark Matter Enigma show how scientists are now leaning towards models where the dark matter is "warmer" and has the ability to interact with its self a little bit.

Also notice how at the end of the doco Krauss and several other scientists admit that it stretches the realm of plausibility because then we have to start thinking about large invisible dark matter structures. It would be fairly obvious in our observations if there were in fact large invisible masses floating around space, it would show up in the data in various ways. We just don't see any signs of large invisible object floating around our solar system or galaxy, the dark matter must have a very isotropic distribution to remain so undetectable; it doesn't clump together.

It would require a plethora of tooth fairies to imagine that the dark sector is that complicated to actually reproduce something like our sector. So in order to have dark planets and dark people and dark TV shows... people have imagined it, I'm not saying they haven't, but it certainly stretches the realm of credibility.

~ Lawrence Krauss

The way I see it, physicist have forced themselves into a corner and it really shows in this doco, they provide far more questions than answers and admit at the end how their most accepted theory of dark matter is also extremely questionable, there is a reason dark matter was originally conceptualized to be so weakly interacting. The solution is most likely not to be found in WIMPs at all, personally I believe the answer lies in theories of negative mass and negative space-time, specifically the idea of inverse gravitational lensing.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
The way I see it, physicist have forced themselves into a corner and it really shows in this doco, they provide far more questions than answers and admit at the end how their most accepted theory of dark matter is also extremely questionable, there is a reason dark matter was originally conceptualized to be so weakly interacting. The solution is most likely not to be found in WIMPs at all, personally I believe the answer lies in theories of negative mass and negative space-time, specifically the idea of inverse gravitational lensing.

The doco might have given you a wrong impression then. Dark matter research is doing just fine. No corners far and wide, no shortage on ideas and things to test either.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
Also notice how at the end of the doco Krauss and several other scientists admit that it stretches the realm of plausibility because then we have to start thinking about large invisible dark matter structures. It would be fairly obvious in our observations if there were in fact large invisible masses floating around space, it would show up in the data in various ways. We just don't see any signs of large invisible object floating around our solar system or galaxy, the dark matter must have a very isotropic distribution to remain so undetectable; it doesn't clump together.

that's implying gravitational interaction between dark matter and matter.

here's a crazy idea: what if dark matter doesn't interact gravitationally with matter per se, but at the same time is the reason gravity and electromagnetism exist? aether anyone?

Most of dark matter is shadow matter. This is the E8-singlet state of E8xE8' heterotic superstrings. Shadow matter is confined to a 10-d space-time sheet parallel to the 10-d space-time sheet occupied by E8'-singlet states of superstrings (ordinary matter) and separated by a narrow gap extending along the 10th dimension of space required by supergravity theories. If this dimension is a circular, compactified space instead of a segment, it generates the second type of heterotic superstring: the SO(32) superstring, for which the distinction between shadow matter and ordinary matter disappears. The size of the gap determines the strength of the gravitational constant. Matter is confined to either sheet and these two fundamental types of matter can interact only through gravity. The force fields between shadow matter superstrings contain a component that is the counterpart of the long-range electromagnetic field. Spin-1/2 superstrings of ordinary matter making up the visible universe consist of 10 closed curves carrying the 240 gauge charges of E8; they are the quasi-monopole endpoints of non-abelian Nielsen-Oleson vortices in the Higgs superfluid pervading all space. They bind together into groups of three to form quarks through the Meissner Effect, which squeezes hypercolour flux into quantised bundles. Spin-1/2 shadow matter superstrings consist of five closed curves that carry the 240 gauge charges of E8'.
Shadow matter exists through the universe, although it is invisible. It forms a counterpart of the ordinary matter body in biological systems, organizing the organic matrix of its form. It has traditionally been called "etheric matter"....

All this I have theoretically proven rigorously. But I cannot provide internet links because it would reveal my identity.

a reply to: Jonjonj

This probably wouldn't be related to a soul, but maybe some aspects that we attribute to spirituality. Ultimately, dark matter would still be physical stuff that builds and crumbles, similar to, but not identical to ordinary matter. However, it might explain certain feelings we have around people we've never met. If we can perceive the dark matter body of others, then certain feelings or emotions that the brain signals may be related to those dark matter bodies interacting. Why do we often "feel" someone staring at us? Why does meeting a person sometimes "feel" like they are an old friend? These feeling might be dark-physical reactions. This is complete speculation, but I'd assume we'd have some interaction with our physical dark matter bodies.

It would be a stretch to say that we'd get dark matter diseases that destroy/injury our dark matter bodies. However, it would be interesting if our consciousness moved between our hypothetical dark matter body. Maybe someone who is having a drug trip and tells you that their consciousness rose above their body was merely experiencing their consciousness in their dark matter body... not so much "detached", but rather "on the out-stretches" of the hidden physical form. Again, this is just random musings on human experience that we currently can't explain. Certainly don't take it as gospel.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I, sadly, completely agree that the greatest likelihood is that darkmatter-matter interactions are very unlikely. Or if they do happen, they are so weak as to be completely undetectable by our senses and our human experience. But it's more exciting to try to present a barely plausible case where such a "thing" is real. I treat it as an exercise of the mind.

Personally, I'm becoming a fan of the superfluid vacuum theory. It's mostly above my head, but I've seen quite a few illustrations as to how it is meant to unify the fundamental forces and explain certain aspects of quantum mechanics. It is far more intriguing than Superstring Theory, or other crazy ideas that will not be testable in our lifetimes.

Also, I have a bit of a problem with Krauss. He's perfectly OK with a universe from nothingness and random particles appearing from the vacuum. This, to me, seems very against his atheist background, where everything needs to have an explanation or remained as "unexplained" or "not true". As many have said, current-day physics is his religion. He's basically a theist for modern science, where virtual particles are his virgin birth.

And finally, in regards to negative mass, wouldn't that potentially cause an even greater disconnect in our measurements of physical mass throughout the universe? I mean, if some of the mass is being counterbalanced by negative mass, then we aren't even recording all "positive mass", right? We simply measure the sum. I assume you believe that negative mass is getting counted as ordinary mass, but is acting in an opposing way.

From: en.wikipedia.org...

Hence Bondi pointed out that two objects of equal and opposite mass would produce a constant acceleration of the system towards the positive-mass object, an effect called "runaway motion" by William Bonnor...
Such a couple of objects would accelerate without limit (except relativistic one); however, the total mass, momentum and energy of the system would remain 0.

a reply to: micpsi

Superstring theory is only rigorously proven on paper, not observation. Nothing from E8 theory has been proven, to my knowledge (related to observable physics, not mathematics). Garrett Lisi proposed several links between physical particles and predicted E8 particles. I would be excited to hear that the LHC (or other particle accelerator) found one of his particles. However, to date, that hasn't happened. I do appreciate that he actually took the time to put his ideas on the line with testable predictions... unlike Superstring theory.

I can't comment intelligently on hypercolour, as it is too new to me to provide anything of value. It looks like it is something related to, either, theorized sub-particles that make up quarks, or a principle to altar how we categorize subatomic particles to get rid of colour classification.

Regardless, I have heard the idea that most dark matter is probably just various forms of currently-undetectable ordinary matter... if that's what you were referring to. I'm good with that idea, but it doesn't really push boundaries. Either way, the truth is the truth. More observations will verify which path is the correct one.

originally posted by: moebius
The doco might have given you a wrong impression then. Dark matter research is doing just fine. No corners far and wide, no shortage on ideas and things to test either.

The doco didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. There are lots of ideas but the vast majority of them have now been ruled out. That is why scientists are now honing in on warm self-interacting dark matter, it's one of the only remaining theories where our simulations actually produce results closer to what we actually observe in reality, with a more correct distribution of dark matter and a more reasonable number of dwarf galaxies. If you're a MOND proponent then we may as well stop this discussion now because we're not going to convince each other of anything.

a reply to: Protector

Personally, I'm becoming a fan of the superfluid vacuum theory. It's mostly above my head, but I've seen quite a few illustrations as to how it is meant to unify the fundamental forces and explain certain aspects of quantum mechanics.

The dark fluid theory of dark matter is sort of related to that theory, and I believe it's one of the only real contenders against the WIMP theory right now. The theory of negative space-time which I referred to in my last post is also very much related to the concept of super fluids. See the link in my signature titled "Universe".

Also, I have a bit of a problem with Krauss. He's perfectly OK with a universe from nothingness and random particles appearing from the vacuum. This, to me, seems very against his atheist background, where everything needs to have an explanation or remained as "unexplained" or "not true".

He pretty much just says it's due to the quantum randomness, which is a valid explanation from his perspective, but I see what you are trying to get at. I have actually written a thread on this exact topic before as well: The intrinsic necessity of quantum mechanics

Time will tell, Dark Matter research well into a new generation of multi-ton scale WIMP detectors with one experiment (my old experiment) taking production data as we ponder, and another one hot on its heels (abet with some backgrounds and chemical purity issues)

The parameter space is very wide, and from the explanation OP, i think you didn't quite understand the concept of Hot and Cold dark matter.

Cold dark matter is simply that if assumed to be a particle, it would have high mass, and thus has low-ish momentum... it would be easily gravitationally bound and more clumpy.

Hot dark matter (again assuming it is a particle) would be low mass, and thus in order to make up for the amount of apparent unobserved mass, means you have a lot of it, but also that it has more energy per particle. which means it would be less gravitationally bound and more diffuse.

Both hot and cold dark matter could theoretically be self interacting, one of the signals being searched for is relic wimp annihilation (wimp / anti-wimp), relic as in, the particles have been around since the big bang.

As for dark matter and biology, at the scales we are talking about and apparent interaction cross sections... no.. you are talking about a matter-dark matter collision occurring maybe once in your life time... maybe more actually... sorry but i just cant even begin to believe that to be a worth while thought experiment. The experiment I worked for has a target exposure as 3 ton years, at a background level of

Fascinating conversation!

If the Dark Matter clumps then like asteroids it should in time develop enough mass to form a spherical shape.

Perhaps finding a way to detect for that effect would seem reasonable.

My take on dark matter Is that due to the Law of Conservation matter/antimatter interactions result in the formation of dark matter.

IMHO It explains why there is so much of it.

a reply to: ErosA433

Thanks for the info and good luck (and skill) with your experiment(s).

Also, the end of your post was chopped off:

The experiment I worked for has a target exposure as 3 ton years, at a background level of

a reply to: Protector

Sorry i didnt catch that, not sure why the whole thing didnt post- it was supposed to say

The experiment I worked for has a target exposure as 3 ton years, at a background level of less than 1 event (within the fiducial volume and energy region of interest.

I was then going to reason that for a dark matter interaction on the human body (assuming that 3 ton years observes an event as a thought experiment) it would mean 1 event per 42 years for a human body (average mass)

So it just doesn't seem likely.

Thanks for pointing out that the post got clipped so i could explain better rather than it just sounding like words with no backup

originally posted by: moebius

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
The way I see it, physicist have forced themselves into a corner and it really shows in this doco, they provide far more questions than answers and admit at the end how their most accepted theory of dark matter is also extremely questionable, there is a reason dark matter was originally conceptualized to be so weakly interacting. The solution is most likely not to be found in WIMPs at all, personally I believe the answer lies in theories of negative mass and negative space-time, specifically the idea of inverse gravitational lensing.

The doco might have given you a wrong impression then. Dark matter research is doing just fine. No corners far and wide, no shortage on ideas and things to test either.

Really? Provide one fact about dark matter.

I can: It's made up because mathematicians aren't good enough to figure out where the rest of the energy and matter that they claim should exist is. It's made up because physicists don't understand how energy and matter can interact the way they claim it appears to them that it should act.

Dark matter is not even a good idea - not until we learn about matter first. As long as there is still ignorance regarding what you can see, you can't know what you can't see.