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originally posted by: Aazadan
originally posted by: alphabetaone
Well, for the same reasons people go to the doctor sometimes. They know something is wrong, but they are not ideally suited to diagnosing nor procuring a solution. You don't NEED a solution or a critique to know something is not right.
No, but we've had decades to see that things aren't right. The time to state the obvious has passed. Most people know the economic system isn't right. And just about anyone who has looked at the world knows that more unemployment is coming. So rather than ring the alarm bell over and over again, quoting others opinions about something. Why not actually sit down and discuss the issue. How do we design a working economic system in a world of high unemployment?
Why not actually sit down and discuss the issue.
originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: alphabetaone
No, perhaps I'm not being clear.
I don't consider a bunch of people agreeing there's a problem to be discussion.
Coming up with potential solutions is discussion. Seeing where those solutions succeed and fail is how you further frame the problem. Pointing out that things were different in the old days doesn't.
originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: alphabetaone
imho, the first step is to define the problem, and agree on the problem's 'identity.' Only then can one discuss solutions. ...Too often on these boards, the "problem" is re-defined with each new post. ...Ergo, no way to move forward.
...human natures tendency for laziness...
Anytime, my pleasure! I enjoy discussions like this
originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: alphabetaone
Nice post. Thanks.
Agree with most of what you say except maybe for this bit:
...human natures tendency for laziness...
Studies show that most people truly enjoy meaningful work - when they have security, and the opportunity to pursue it, they go for it. So UBI is not the boogeyman.
originally posted by: muSSang
In the future you will see products labelled not by country but by if it was made by a human.
The middle class just have to boycott automated products, there also will be a legislation stating a minimum number of employees have to work there. There will be a market for man made products.
originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: alphabetaone
No, perhaps I'm not being clear.
I don't consider a bunch of people agreeing there's a problem to be discussion.
Coming up with potential solutions is discussion. Seeing where those solutions succeed and fail is how you further frame the problem. Pointing out that things were different in the old days doesn't.
...we just have to make sure all the gains from automation do not all flow to the wealthy.
originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: alphabetaone
But what about those who are NOT gainfully employed - and never will be because there's no niche for them in the new economy? Do you agree that they too, can create meaningful work? Albeit unpaid? ...and if they have a right to UBI, does that include the right to some basic techno-goodies? Or just survival basics (food, water, shelter)?
PS. Check out lakenheath24's new thread on UBI.
originally posted by: alphabetaone
Here, it's easy, the topic is the "problem"...will middle-class labor pool be replaced by AI? The answer regretfully is likely a resounding yes. The solution? Well, considering, imho, most people want AI to replace every single one of their 'tediums' (again, imho all that represents humanity) under the auspice of the path of least resistance and human natures tendency for laziness will opt for some sort of UBI. Which wouldn't be so bad, as Marxist leaning as it is, with one exception: the constant wage divide. The purse-string pullers will ALWAYS have more than recipients of UBI and thus control the world, at which point there will be absolutely nothing humanity can do about it lest they cant feed their families if the currency overlords decide to pull the plug on whole regions.
originally posted by: alphabetaone
Does the monetary system remain in place? Or does anyone who has managed to create even a small amount of wealth for themselves now find that wealth either useless or part of a systemic UBI pool?
Is there any further true need for education? If so, where is it applicable? Only to the formerly wealthy? And, speaking of which, has their wealth now nosedived? If not, you've now set up a series of global thieves. If so, what resources are generating a UBI pool? In fact, if an individual has exactly the same as their neighbor and neither of them have monetary purchasing power, then what is even the need FOR a UBI pool? At this point simply give away everything for free.
How could UBI be sustainable when there is no purchasing power? The wealthy / formerly wealthy will eventually run out of resources (money) unless they manufacture from thin air a currency, however what is their motivation for that when historically currency is the trade for something. Unless of course, we're assuming that simply being a productive member of society (or at the very least not a menace to society) is the "work" performed to ensure the motivation of UBI continuum.
You see, the variables are so deep I could go on for thousands of pages with my little question/assumption scenario which makes answering your question far too complex to answer with any level of sincerity....
originally posted by: soficrow
Thanks. Yes, the variables are real - but you missed my post to proxima just above your response to me:
The wealthiest persons on the planet are corporations - and all of our and our ancestors' labor over the past few hundred years have gone into building their wealth.
Ergo, it's not the working humans who ought to fund UBI but rather, the corporate persons who continue to benefit the most.
...This perspective should cover many of your concerns.
originally posted by: soficrow
a reply to: alphabetaone
My deepest apologies to you and others. I am not giving this conversation the time and attention it deserves - just dropping in, sometimes reading, sometimes scanning, then zooming off again. Hope to have more time soon.
Elon Musk: Self-Driving Car Revolution Will Leave 15% of World Population Without Jobs
The future of the driverless car is much closer than people realize, Elon Musk reportedly said in a speech in Dubai Monday. That’s the good news. The bad news, he points out, is that there will be a steep price to pay for the “great convenience.”
‘There are many people whose jobs are to drive. In fact, I think it might be the single largest employer of people. So we need to figure out new roles for what do those people do, but it will be very disruptive and very quick.’