Perceptronium

a reply to: namelesss


Clearly you have some strong opinions as to how the Universe is organized and who is qualified to discuss.

The more massive an object the smaller the wave aspect. And while in conservative evaluation that wave aspect is not significant that definition is arguable in relation to the fundamental. In so far as "No Brainz", explain that to people who have suffered traumatic brain injuries.

BRISTOL, England, and NICE, France, Nov. 5, 2012 — It is well-known that photons can act like waves or particles, depending on how they are measured experimentally. But they have never been seen exhibiting both behaviors at the same time — until now.

www.photonics.com...


This is real and that same would apply to matter in relation to its wave function...

Since the universal validity of the state function description is asserted, one can regard the state functions themselves as the fundamental entities, and one can even consider the state function of the entire universe. In this sense this theory can be called the theory of the "universal wave function," since all of physics is presumed to follow from this function alone.[7]

en.wikipedia.org...

From Nameless:

Desperate attempts by the conditional ego to 'bind' the unconditional to it's 'dualistic' definitions/boundaries.

Consciousness has no 'boundaries', and conditional 'thought' cannot bind/conceive it, no matter how large your ego! "Consciousness is the ground of all being!

Sounds like religious dogma to me.

a reply to: Bedlam


I agree he does seem really focused and his position is controversial but as far as consciousness as state of matter he is trying to address what he the link referred as "information paradox".

Care to offer conclusions as to that issue as it is really what I am interested in?

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: namelesss
Clearly you have some strong opinions as to how the Universe is organized and who is qualified to discuss.

Hardly.
I have theories, unrefuted, waiting for the single refutation to alter or dump the theory.
Not a problem.
Am I being a mirror for you?
Anyone is 'qualified to discuss', it is not me that identifies the words posted with the poster; I examine the words whether Einstein says them or GW Bush. They either hold up logically, experientially, or not, to critical examination.

The more massive an object the smaller the wave aspect.

As counterintuitive as that sounds, I'd need for you to clarify exactly what that 'wave aspect' is, exactly.
There are many 'waves'...

And while in conservative evaluation that wave aspect is not significant that definition is arguable in relation to the fundamental.

Is this what they mean by 'leg pulling'?
Is this an example of the 'brain injury' mentioned?

In so far as "No Brainz", explain that to people who have suffered traumatic brain injuries.

When I used that phrase, you can see that, in context, I was referring to how all that is perceived, all that exists (and that is everything) is, essentially composed of the same 'thing', 'Mind', 'information waves'.
The spelling was a tongue in cheek nod at all the local 'zombie' movies, hence the spelling.
We do not seem to be sharing a page, here...

BRISTOL, England, and NICE, France, Nov. 5, 2012 — It is well-known that photons can act like waves or particles, depending on how they are measured experimentally. But they have never been seen exhibiting both behaviors at the same time — until now.

Though the article is 5 years old, I have been posting about "Reality is a synchrony of moments!" for decades.
And it is not new with me.
That certainly explains the synchronicities that folks experience, and 'all' other' 'psy' phenomena.

Look at quantum entanglement! The exact same moment the thing is affected, so is the other thing, even if it is on the other side of the Universe!
Know what travels faster than 'light'?
Mind!
No 'time/space' involved at all! Instantaneous!

Or the 'quantum leap'!
Scientists just recently found that the electrons do not really 'leap' ferom energy level to energy level, when the equipment became sufficiently sensitive it was found that the electron vanished from Reality and instantaneously another electron appeared on that next energy level!

www.photonics.com...
This is real and that same would apply to matter in relation to its wave function...

You know, the Chinese thought Einstein the fool in that he had to 'prove' what was already known intuitively.
I just visited the site. Interesting.
If all that is to discover the synchronicity of Reality, then, whatever floats your boat.
Meditation works well, also...
A point;
“This represents a strong refutation of models in which the photon is either a wave or a particle.”
This confusing sentence, and the confusion of those trying to make such 'determinations' what 'photons' "are", are so 'deluded' by the language.
The photon is what it is, whether the photon APPEARS to that particular observer/Perspective, at that particular moment, in memory, as a 'wave' or a 'particle' says nothing about the essential nature of the 'photon' and, of course, everything about the state of the observer/Perspective!
The sky is not 'blue', the sky appears to me, at this moment, as 'blue'.
See; E-Prime;
TOWARD UNDERSTANDING E -PRIME

Robert Anton Wilson

www.nobeliefs.com...

Since the universal validity of the state function description is asserted, one can regard the state functions themselves as the fundamental entities, and one can even consider the state function of the entire universe. In this sense this theory can be called the theory of the "universal wave function," since all of physics is presumed to follow from this function alone.[7]

en.wikipedia.org...

"The Theory of the Universal Wave Function, and forms a core concept in the relative state interpretation[2][3] or many-worlds interpretation..."

Then it will be found to fail.
The tree is known by the fruits.
What is a 'wave' when 'time' and 'motion' are not variables in the equation?
What is a 'wave' in a single Planck moment?

From Nameless:
Desperate attempts by the conditional ego to 'bind' the unconditional to it's 'dualistic' definitions/boundaries. Consciousness has no 'boundaries', and conditional 'thought' cannot bind/conceive it, no matter how large your ego! "Consciousness is the ground of all being!

Sounds like religious dogma to me.
So, you include the bit about Consciousness to whine that you cannot deal with it because it sounds 'religious', while you snip off the part that says that it is science? Quantum mechanics!
None of it is 'religious dogma'; there's psychology, physics, metaphysics, deep hard won insight...
Obviously you are inexperienced with 'religious dogma'.
I'll try not to serve it up to you again, but if I should forget, I do not choose what I write and, just perhaps, there is someone else reading this besides just we two, and it might be for them. *__-

a reply to: namelesss

Matter wave

This article is about wave-like phenomena exhibited by particles of matter. For the ordinary type of wave propagating through material media, see Mechanical wave.

All matter can exhibit wave-like behavior. For example, a beam of electrons can be diffracted just like a beam of light or a water wave. Matter waves are a central part of the theory of quantum mechanics, being an example of wave–particle duality. The concept that matter behaves like a wave is also referred to as the de Broglie hypothesis (/dəˈbrɔɪ/) due to having been proposed by Louis de Broglie in 1924.[1] Matter waves are referred to as de Broglie waves.

The de Broglie wavelength is the wavelength, λ, associated with a massive particle and is related to its momentum, p, through the Planck constant,

Experimental confirmation

Demonstration of a matter wave in diffraction of electrons

Matter waves were first experimentally confirmed to occur in George Paget Thomson's cathode ray diffraction experiment[2] and the Davisson-Germer experiment for electrons, and the de Broglie hypothesis has been confirmed for other elementary particles. Furthermore, neutral atoms and even molecules have been shown to be wave-like.

en.wikipedia.org...

I do not have any problems with you expressing yourself friend

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: namelesss
This article is about wave-like phenomena exhibited by particles of matter.

What is a 'particle of matter'?
As opposed to what, a 'particle of antimatter'?
What particular matter are we talking about?
Or doesn't it matter? *__-

a reply to: namelesss


Just like a wave of light as a particle aspect called a photon matter has a wave aspect.


The other side of a coin so to speak.

Essentially what I am saying is that our matter form in relation to its wave state could have something to do with Consciousness and potentially in relation to Biology.


Any thoughts?

The black hole information paradox[1] is a puzzle resulting from the combination of quantum mechanics and general relativity. Calculations suggest that physical information could permanently disappear in a black hole, allowing many physical states to devolve into the same state. This is controversial because it violates a commonly assumed tenet of science—that in principle complete information about a physical system at one point in time should determine its state at any other time.[2][3] A fundamental postulate of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is that complete information about a system is encoded in its wave function up to when the wave function collapses. The evolution of the wave function is determined by a unitary operator, and unitarity implies that information is conserved in the quantum sense.

en.wikipedia.org...

Black holes are regions of space so incredibly dense that nothing, not even light, can escape from them. Most are thought to form at the end of a big star’s life, when its internal pressure is insufficient to resist its own gravity and the star collapses under its own weight.

Most scientists believe that, since there is nothing to stop this collapse, eventually a singularity will form — a region where infinite densities are reached and Einstein’s general relativity ceases to be predictive.

But this “singularity theory” has flaws. Since the laws of physics no longer apply in a region of infinite density, no one knows what could possibly happen inside a black hole.

Stephen Hawking suggested in the early 1970s that black holes can slowly evaporate and disappear. But in this case, what happens to the information that describes an object that falls into a black hole? According to general relativity, information cannot simply disappear; inside a black hole, however, information apparently does. This “information paradox” has puzzled researchers for decades.

Carlo Rovelli at the University of Marseille in France and Francesca Vidotto at Radboud University in the Netherlands have attempted to answer this question by exploring the idea that the universe, which is assumed to have started with the Big Bang, actually emerged — because of quantum gravitational effects — from a “big bounce,” following an earlier contracting phase.

“The quantum gravitational effects produce an effective repulsive force, so that matter wouldn’t have collapsed into a singularity, but it would have just reached a maximal compact state,” Vidotto said.

This way, the universe would “bounce” when the energy density of matter reached the Planck scale, the smallest possible size in physics, causing the universe to expand again, and then possibly collapse again, and so on, back and forth. [Alternatives to the Big Bang Theory (Infographic)]

A similar idea has now been proposed for the fate of the collapsing matter of a dying star.

Researchers say that quantum effects — similar to those that prevent an electron falling into the nucleus of an atom — would stop the collapse of a star before it could shrink to a single point, or singularity. The star would then become a super-compact object, bounce back during the evaporation process of the black hole and finally explode. Eventually, everything that would have fallen into the black hole would be released.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

Temporal Consciousness

First published Fri Aug 6, 2010

In ordinary conscious experience, consciousness of time seems to be ubiquitous. For example, we seem to be directly aware of change, movement, and succession across brief temporal intervals. How is this possible? Many different models of temporal consciousness have been proposed. Some philosophers have argued that consciousness is confined to a momentary interval and that we are not in fact directly aware of change.

Others have argued that although consciousness itself is momentary, we are nevertheless conscious of change. Still others have argued that consciousness is itself extended in time. In this entry, the motivations and merits of these and other positions will be expounded and assessed.

plato.stanford.edu...

originally posted by: Kashai
Essentially what I am saying is that our matter form in relation to its wave state could have something to do with Consciousness and potentially in relation to Biology.
Any thoughts?

That makes sense, in a way.
I think that I can translate that into 'namelesssese';

Essentially what I am saying is that our matter form in relation to its wave state

We need definitions, again.
Science teaches that there is no 'matter', that is just an 'appearance', a phenomenon of 'magnification'.
If we were the size of 'protons', for instance, would there be any 'matter' to perceive? Anything at all that is 'solid'?
Of course not!
As we examine closer, we find that EVERYTHING, from his gold ring to dreams arer made of the same 'waves', information waves, Mind.
'Matter' is a 'mirage'. Mirages don't make waves, they are waves.
So, 'matter' in relation to it's 'wave state' is 1:1, they are one and the same thing, merely seen from two different Perspectives!

could have something to do with Consciousness

It can only be Consciousness that can reflect/see these 'information waves', and, due to Perspective, actually see 'things' in that pile of 'homogenous' original unchanging Universal 'undifferentiated potential', the Universe! God! Self!
Quantum says that perception causes those waves to 'collapse' into some one or another 'Reality'.
The 'waves' do not 'collapse into anything, it is by the glance of Consciousness that anything appears, and it is an 'appearance', 'make-believe' 'matter'.

and potentially in relation to Biology.

Whether a biologist, or any other branch of science, if one is not informed by quantum mechanics, one's 'science' is obsolete, already.

a reply to: namelesss


Matter despite the conclusion that it is based solely upon fields is relevant fundamentally as otherwise it would not exist.


What keeps the mass of a photon is place of the nucleus of an atom is the nuclear force and if one wishes to discount that effect as an illusion, well that is arguable fundamentally.

Also our general perception of solidity has more to do with the Electron Cloud.

The "electron cloud", is theoretical construct that developed over problems in Chemistry not Physics.

An interesting side note is that when it comes to Multiverse theory it has everything to do with the electron cloud and not the nucleus of the atom.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: namelesss


Matter despite the conclusion that it is based solely upon fields is relevant fundamentally as otherwise it would not exist.

"Mirages of oases, despite the conclusion that it is based solely upon fields, is relevant fundamentally as otherwise it would not exist."
And who has that "conclusion' that 'matter is based solely on fields"?
Even the perception of matter requires the touch of Consciousness on that 'field' (Mind).
It does not exist unless perceived.
Are you saying that everything is "fundamentally relevant' because it exists?
I'd agree with that, of course, but your terms are vague. I'm sure that we mean different things when we say 'fundamentally relevant'.
Is a mirage 'fundamentally relevant' because it exists?

.... a photon

Quantum probability wave field, 'undifferentiated potential', Mindstuff.
Consciousness!

... the nucleus

Quantum probability wave field, 'undifferentiated potential', Mindstuff.
Consciousness!

...atom

Quantum probability wave field, 'undifferentiated potential', Mindstuff.
Consciousness!

...nuclear force

Quantum probability wave field, 'undifferentiated potential', Mindstuff.
Consciousness!

"Rabbit turds"
Quantum probability wave field, 'undifferentiated potential', Mindstuff.
Consciousness!

"The Atlantic Ocean"
Quantum probability wave field, 'undifferentiated potential', Mindstuff.
Consciousness!

"Dreams"
Quantum probability wave field, 'undifferentiated potential', Mindstuff.
Consciousness!

"Thoughts"
Quantum probability wave field, 'undifferentiated potential', Mindstuff.
Consciousness!

"The Sun"
Quantum probability wave field, 'undifferentiated potential', Mindstuff.
Consciousness!

and on ad-infinitum.
There does not exist anything that is not 'Mindstuff/Consciousness'!
'Make-believe'.

and if one wishes to discount that effect as an illusion, well that is arguable fundamentally.

Everything is 'arguable', but I don't think that it can be supported.
To say that our Reality is 'make-believe' is not meant to 'discount' anything!
Quite the opposite, it is Truth!

Also our general perception of solidity has more to do with the Electron Cloud.

"Electron cloud"
Quantum probability wave field, 'undifferentiated potential', Mindstuff.
Consciousness!
When the 'information wave' reads 'feel pressure on finger when 'touching' the rock', you will 'feel the pressure, you will be 'touching' the solid rock.
But, you do not actually ever 'touch' stuff, you just assimilate data, experience, Knowledge.
Things seem solid, hard, round, pointy, etc... in dreams, right? You can get hurt getting clubbed in the head in your dream!
It happens because it 'seems' so real/solid!
Just like in the 'eyes open' dream... *__-

originally posted by: Kashai
An interesting side note is that when it comes to Multiverse theory it has everything to do with the electron cloud and not the nucleus of the atom.

As there is only One, unchanging, ALL inclusive Universe, I find the Multiverse Theory a rather pathetic attempt to go where they have no experience, no clue.
And it violates Occam's Razor..., Hell, it craps all over it! Hahahahahah! *__-

Imagine;
I am looking at the Tails side of the coin, you are looking at the Heads side and we theorize, in our shortsightedness, that there must be two coins...
Multiverse.

a reply to: namelesss


To me its not a mirage but rather an aspect and one that allows for life to exist as we understand it.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: namelesss
To me its not a mirage but rather an aspect and one that allows for life to exist as we understand it.

'Life' and 'death' exist solely in/as 'thought', mental images and explanations, all easily done with the eyes closed.
Mindstuff.
The Universe, "as we understand it" is completely different than we will understand it in a century!
"As we understand it" is a constantly changing variable.
All 'meaning', all (feelings of) 'understanding', exist solely in/as 'thought', mental images and explanations/theories, all easily done with the eyes closed.
Mindstuff.
If 'Mindstuff', like unicorns and other dreams, then if 'believed' to be autonomously physically existent 'matter', then that is no longer an illusion, but a delusion.

a reply to: namelesss


So you have a problem with meditation with eye's open?

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: namelesss


So you have a problem with meditation with eye's open?

Nope! None at all.
Just a literary device.
We perceive a rock to exist, because we see it with eyes open and theorize it's autonomous existence. Wrongly.
By eyes closed, I was meaning an 'imagination/thought thing'.

One can meditate with eyes open or shut or half-way, and while doing anything, anytime! *__-

So the topic is the relationship to matter waves and consciousness.