"You best separate yourself!"

The people with the most power to stop those who commit crimes in their name, are those who share and own that name. It's not a matter of distancing oneself, it's a matter of helping stand against such actions. It's a matter of helping demonstrate that there's a rational side on both ends of the debate, and that we can stand together on both sides against the crazies on both sides. By showing that you do not support the actions of the lunatic fringe of your movement, you demonstrate that you stand united with all rational people against such actions. However, when such people do these things in your name and you remain silent, you are enabling them to represent you, because you're doing nothing to disparage that in any way other than cry about being associated with it.

What we need is for all the rational people on both sides of the aisle to unite in standing against the crazies on both sides and in doing so bring things back to tolerable normalcy, not simply keep enabling it by pretending it's not a problem, or only a problem for one side and not the other. However, for this to happen, both sides need to put on their big boy pants and take responsibility for their own side, and recognize this is something we need to work on and fix together.

If fact separating yourself is the exact opposite of what people want. What people want instead is for you to start taking responsibility for those among you that do wrong instead of just ignoring it and letting it continue unchallenged. Is there a reason you don't want to help put a stop to those causing pain and destruction in your name?

a reply to: Puppylove

So the best way to show that you don't support shooting abortion clinics is in fact to go around telling everybody you think it's bad to shoot up abortion clinics, as opposed to I dunno...not shooting abortion clinics?

I generally don't assume people think that that's an okay thing to do until they give me a reason to think they believe it's okay to do. So I question the motives of somebody who demands virtue signalling when no fault exists on the part of one person, as to whether they really want to discuss the issue at hand or they'd rather know who to like and not like.

Generally speaking most people aren't crazy, and don't condone doing crazy # for whatever reason. That's why crazy # is called "crazy #" and not "normal #." I don't get the obsession that apparently you and others have with needing to me to tell you I know it's crazy so that you know I know that you know I know you know I know.

Edit for your edit - how does telling you that I know shooting abortion clinics up is wrong and crazy going to stop somebody from shooting up an abortion clinic? How is telling you that I know it's not okay to go assault people during a riot going to stop somebody else from doing it? Is there a reason you have to resort to false equivalence to try and make a point?

a reply to: Shamrock6

Actions speak more than word. When you all show up at a protest, everyone already has seen you all and the numbers. All you need to do is start walking away when the crazies start rioting. When one idiot starts being crazy, and there's 20 of you non crazy, do something instead of letting it escalate. When the police come in, become a help rather than a hindrance, help identify the rioters. Do something besides continue protesting while the rioting is going on.

By showing up you made your point in the first place, you've demonstrated that you all stand for what you're protesting. When you continue to stay there and protest once rioting and the like starts, you're no longer supporting the protest, you're supporting rioting in your name.

Oh and bullhorns are great. Grab a bullhorn, remind people that this is a peace protest, do so loudly. It goes a long way, more people should do it. People used to do it. Let the signs speak for the protest, let the bullhorns help keep it organized and civilized.

a reply to: ketsuko

Well the point of the OP is expecting the majority to explain themselves thanks to the actions of the minority. Which you apparently do, when it comes to a handful of rioters doing something and expecting everybody else in the protest to let you know they don't think it's cool. But I guess that's only in some cases, but not other cases, and the necessity is defined on the fly. Or something? I don't really know. Because you're arguing that everybody who happens to be where rioters are need to let everybody else know that rioting isn't cool, and they have to do so because it appears they share some beliefs with the rioters, but other people don't have to let anybody know anything because people who share their beliefs did something.

Bottom line is I'm talking about the demand being made on ATS.

a reply to: Puppylove

By showing up at a protest I demonstrate that I support the protest. When somebody else shows up and starts rioting, they're there to riot. You expect me to stop my protest because somebody else is breaking the law? Or to let you know that even though I'm over here not breaking the law and they're up the street breaking the law, I don't think it's cool?

Okay...

And, again, talking about ATS. Not talking about giving an interview to the local news crew so everybody knows I don't like riots.

Yes separate immediately, or get a room!

Some people are trying to eat.

a reply to: Shamrock6

I love how your rioters are magically up the street from you in a separate section of the city. Once people start breaking the law, the protest is over. At least it would be if anyone was rational at all. You leave, or help the authorities calm the situation, act as witnesses against the rioters, and pick up the protest again another day. Keep this up and not only will you demonstrate that the rational side of the movement wins out, but in doing so help make the looting less lucrative and make convictions for such activities far more common.

Both sides need to answer for why they aren't helping authorities and are instead sticking around helping escalate the situation instead.

The reason why this comes up on ATS is because we've allowed protests to be hijacked by rioters too long, and the fact that no one ever seems to be doing anything to help put a stop to rioters, rioting in their name, implies they don't care about actually helping put a stop to it, instead preferring to do jack #, stay in the way, never help getting these people convicted, sit with their thumbs up their ass, and whine because people call them on it.

Peace protesting works, but it takes more than just saying, yeah but I didn't riot. You need to fight the enemy both without and within. If all you care about is the enemy without, then why should your opponent care about you, cause you clearly don't give a # about them.

Both sides are guilty of this, both sides point out the extremists on each others sides, the extreme ideals, etcs. And every single time, instead of admitting how bad the extremists side is, and standing against it on your side, people just bitch about the other acting like their # doesn't stink.

Meanwhile the media is plastered not with the normal rational people on both sides, but the crazy extremists making the headline news with their insane rhetoric. The only side anyone sees of each other is the extremists because everyone keeps sitting back and letting them hog up all the air time and speak for them.

Just ignoring this will not make it go away or get better. We as a people on both sides need to make a stand, and work with law enforcement to get this under wraps. We as a people on both sides need to make sure the media starts getting facts straight. We as a people need to stop letting the lunatic fringe get all the attention.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Some are, some turnout to be, some become that way suddenly, old friends go off their rockers and become Moonies or Scientologists or Jim Jone-ites....and its just a crap-shoot happening at anytime, with anyone, anywhere.

About the time you think you kinda get the "other side's" ideology...they go off bat-sh-t crazy and start painting the insides of their cars with paint rollers.*

*(Had a 'Nam friend who we found outside (had taken lots of acid, but not in awhile then)...in his Volkswagan painting the dash, seats and windows yellow with a paint roller...who said he understood all of us think he's nutty...but because he served "over there"...that he knew the "truth" and that we were all changlings because of the way we treated him..

He didnt like labels of any kind because when you buy something? Those jar label codes has secret info brainwashing us all to believe what we do...and are programmed to make us all antagonists-anarchists.

Last I saw him...he was gonna get all his teeth fixed because all rock-stars had perfect teeth...of course..he wasnt a musician or singer or songwriter...

I always tried my damnednest to distance myself from him....but he always said I couldnt because we are all clones...

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Beatnixx1414

I didn't say destruction of property is violence. Made what I thought was a fairly clear distinction between acts of violence and property damage.

Point remains that when one group of people is protesting something and some other folks show up and start smashing out the windows of a nearby Starbucks, I don't think it's fair to expect the first group to say "oooo that's bad!" and then get mad at them when they don't do it.

And i thought i was pretty clear that support must be given to all levels of protest, that we shouldnt be throwing each other under the bus. Same side protestor's should support each other in most cases. Even when there is a different set of tactics being used. Just dont hurt anybody and we should be all good. 3 books. Pacifism As Pathology-Ward Churchill. Disobedience and Democracy-Howard Zinn. And...How Nonviolence Protects the State-Peter Gelderloos. Read those and get back to me sometime. I think they may open your eyes and completely smash your paradigm. Then we can talk.

a reply to: Shamrock6

I would also argue that if it wasn't for those vandals, Milo would have given his talk. Leaving those outside impotent in a total protest FAIL! And to be clear im not on the side of the vandals either (not my level of comfort) but they did get the job done. Im more of a boycott/ embargo/ occupation kinda guy. Just a few other strategies to go with the other two. Like i said, read and see if you still feel the way you do.

a reply to: Beatnixx1414

If their job was to alienate more reasonable rational people from offering support, then yes they did.

Just because they stopped the talk doesn't mean anything was won. I think it ended in a net negative, and that's never a good way to end.

People do not like violence and instability and do not vote for those they think are accepting of it.

Part of the problem is that generalizations and stereotypes are very accepted around here. With denying ignorance figured it would have been different.

The issue of rioting and more in protests:
Anyone recall OWS, -for the opposing side to protesting-who also had Ron Paul/Tea Party supporters(one source) joining in the peaceful protests as well? Recall when Soros funded types, anarchists who wanted to start trouble and Black Block stepped in? Albeit not all will remember being new to these topics, implore those to look into it.

How does one control paid for types and anarchists who step in? Easier said than done when there are individuals to collectives and establishment types who want the protests to look bad. Don't follow a leader, espcially if that leader is advocating violence.
Noam Chomsky on protesting

a reply to: dreamingawake

By helping the law convict these #ers. Make it not worth the money. By acting in ways that make such tactics ineffective. By taking a goddamn stand against it. We outnumber them millions to one for crying out loud.

No one is even #ing trying. That's what's so frustrating. Of course nothing will change, and it'll keep happening, the people with the most power to put a stop to it refuse to do so, and instead choose to bitch about any criticism they get for doing nothing to help.

a reply to: dreamingawake

One.... you cant control anarchists. Two.. you realize the Black Bloc are anarchists right?

You are right about not following a "leader" though, and one thing is certain, you wont find anarchists doing that. Agree?

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: [post=21872552]Beatnixx1414[/post

People do not like violence and instability and do not vote for those they think are accepting of it.

Um....america has been in wars of some sort or another for decades and centuries. All by leaders who were voted for. If voting worked it would be illegal.

This insanity keeps up and I think I'll separate myself from humanity

OP, I couldn't agree with you more. We eachmake our individual choices in life and reap the punishments or rewards. I don't take credit for others' achievments so why should I take blame for their mistakes?

a reply to: Beatnixx1414

Is why Trump won, and why there was a push for Bernie. We're trying. Last thing people want is civil war, but if Trump is a colossal failure, which he might be, well, we're heading there. People aren't voting for the chaos, is why we keep ping ponging every 4 to 8 years. People keep in vain trying to escape it, but due to effective fear mongering vote one way because of fear of even more chaos should the other side win.

a reply to: Puppylove

I agree. However the second last thing people should want is ANY war. I know you guys are trying. It aint easy.

a reply to: Beatnixx1414

These extremists are part of the system. Ever since the days of Martin Luther King Jr. and Ghandi the powers have learned the power of protests. These people are here to disable the protests, make them incoherent and corrupt the message. The media then targets what they're supposed to, and uses that to represent the groups protesting.

This is why we need to stand against it. Is actively working against us and stripping us of our power.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: dreamingawake

By helping the law convict these #ers. Make it not worth the money. By acting in ways that make such tactics ineffective. By taking a goddamn stand against it. We outnumber them millions to one for crying out loud.

No one is even #ing trying. That's what's so frustrating. Of course nothing will change, and it'll keep happening, the people with the most power to put a stop to it refuse to do so, and instead choose to bitch about any criticism they get for doing nothing to help.

Exactly they won't because they are supported. They are given given housing after being bussed in.