Penalty for ABORTION.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I am absolutely astounded when I see christians preaching hate
We were all created by the same God, He gave us all free will, the capacity to choose.

The penalty for abortion should be unconditional love as Jesus taught christians to offer into this world.
Not hate speech, judgement and condemnation, I pity you and any human who believes you stand with Christ

I am afraid there is little Christ in you, Jesus wasnt a dictator but you are being one in His name?
Its their choice, God gave them a choice.

Using Old Testament, Jewish law to condemn others and you call yourself a christian
Believer Priest do you know you are not a Jew, not under the law?

Whoa. Wait a minute. Who am I condemning exactly?

I spent half of the OP stating that I am pro-choice. So what condemnation or judgment am I passing? How exactly am I acting like a dictator? I didn't even suggest that abortion should be penalized.

You are preaching division, sensationalism and chasm
There is nothing edifying in your post, condemning those who are for or against is your sole purpose.

Oh. I see now. So saying things that are theologically and politically unpopular while providing extensive scriptural evidence is preaching division, sensationalism, chasm, and unedifying???

Gee, we'll then I wonder how the Protestant Reformation got started?

Yeah, its silly of me to think that Prez Trump and his thugs might ever make a criminal issue out of abortion. Yeah, cuz Trump never stirs controversy.

Oh wait. Aren't these his words in the video?



There's those damned Alt-Facts again.


Oh, and I still don't know who you say I'm condemning. I'm simply providing a very plausible scenario, that very well could be in our future, and I'm trying to explain why this SHOUL NOT be such a dividing issue. Just stick with ridicule. You're good at it.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I am absolutely astounded when I see christians preaching hate
We were all created by the same God, He gave us all free will, the capacity to choose.

The penalty for abortion should be unconditional love as Jesus taught christians to offer into this world.
Not hate speech, judgement and condemnation, I pity you and any human who believes you stand with Christ

I am afraid there is little Christ in you, Jesus wasnt a dictator but you are being one in His name?
Its their choice, God gave them a choice.

Using Old Testament, Jewish law to condemn others and you call yourself a christian
Believer Priest do you know you are not a Jew, not under the law?

Whoa. Wait a minute. Who am I condemning exactly?

I spent half of the OP stating that I am pro-choice. So what condemnation or judgment am I passing? How exactly am I acting like a dictator? I didn't even suggest that abortion should be penalized.

You are preaching division, sensationalism and chasm
There is nothing edifying in your post, condemning those who are for or against is your sole purpose.

Oh. I see now. So saying things that are theologically and politically unpopular while providing extensive scriptural evidence is preaching division, sensationalism, chasm, and unedifying???

Gee, we'll then I wonder how the Protestant Reformation got started?

Yeah, its silly of me to think that Prez Trump and his thugs might ever make a criminal issue out of abortion. Yeah, cuz Trump never stirs controversy.

Oh wait. Aren't these his words in the video?

There's those damned Alt-Facts again.


Oh, and I still don't know who you say I'm condemning. I'm simply providing a very plausible scenario, that very well could be in our future, and I'm trying to explain why this SHOUL NOT be such a dividing issue. Just stick with ridicule. You're good at it.

I couldnt care less about Trump, just sick of all the hate preaching and sensationalism.

You couldnt care less about the women and children affected, just chasing stars and flags from those you think will support you
You are condemning anyone with a different opinion, thats not christian, leave christianity out of your ego stroking

a reply to: Raggedyman

Um, no. I'm actually trying to have a conversation about the very real threat of Dominionism in Politics. I'm not condemning anyone, nor am I condoning abortion. I'm just saying that abortion is not the murderous evil that Fundamentalist Churchians make it out to be, and the choice should be in the hands of women, not the gov't.

Why are you so eager to make assumptions about me? Despite your disagreement with me, we are still siblings in Christ.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Raggedyman

Um, no. I'm actually trying to have a conversation about the very real threat of Dominionism in Politics. I'm not condemning anyone, nor am I condoning abortion. I'm just saying that abortion is not the murderous evil that Fundamentalist Churchians make it out to be, and the choice should be in the hands of women, not the gov't.

Why are you so eager to make assumptions about me? Despite your disagreement with me, we are still siblings in Christ.

I am against abortion but respect a womans choice
But I would never condemn as you have

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

I'm not condemning anyone, nor am I condoning abortion. I'm just saying that abortion is not the murderous evil that Fundamentalist Churchians make it out to be.

You are tying in Trump with christianity to score hate points
You are using fundamentalist Churchians and Trump to divide people

Wake up to yourself, its hate speech, brother.
If you cant see that I am sorry

As someone my parents NEVER wanted but due to the system playing morals? I was resented and also a failed abortion, called shoved as hard as the fellow possibly could stomach first into the stove sister said "mom" was bleeding from it, still have a nice crease in the back of my head where the oven handle caught it in the womb, flat spot from crib neglect, grandmother threatened to take me away from maggots in my diaper... early 70's NO womens protection or social services that were in place to really accomodate. It was a joke back in those days if the police showed up... HA HA give her one for me eh?

I have a son; awesome human being no regrets not from day one I found out the wife was pregnant with him... couldn't say the same for her, but anyway.

So there's some idea to force people back into those situations? I take offence to such a thing. Forcing responsibility onto people that do not want it? Can't handle it? WTF? Seriously. It is a womans right her body her say NO one else's and she needs all the protection in the world possible from MORALISTS trying to say what she can and cannot do with HER body. No one owns anyone's body EVER at all... unless you've signed some government contract saying you are government property.

I am not anyone's property but MINE. I hold others in the same regards. No one is nor will ever be my property... slavery is slavery and there is no ETHICS in moral make believe to say otherwise. The reality TRUMPS all the stupidity that we have crawled out of.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

But thats an ignorant argument
The baby in the womb is a body
the baby is not the mothers property, no one owns anyone
Its the babys right as a unique human to be born?
Mothers saying what can and cant be done with the baby in her womb, worse than moralists

Your argument BBD is stupid, you give all rights to the mother and neglect the baby, why, because its helpless, doesnt have a voice, you can ignore it easily, why?

You set the mother free and kill the child, what gives the mother, you that right

I am not saying you are wrong, just pointing out why your argument is so flawed.
Why your argument is hypocritical

a reply to: Raggedyman

My life is a ridiculous argument? Yeah too bad it wasn't successful... I'd have been saved a lot of hell, been saved from a child molester and his enabler because there were no systems in place that cared. Now that there are systems in place? Yeah lets all just regress into a vile pit of stupidity.

My first moment of consciousness in this life remembered? Getting circumcised at eight days later, just a face didn;t even know who it was. Next one? A cat giving birth, looked like a pile of leaves to me... just some brown crap moving around... didn't know what a cat was. No concepts in there leaves yeah cause I played in them. Nothing there dude blank slate until filled with our conceptual.

Do you remember crowning? Do you remember being in your mommas womb? No? Then who's argument is ridiculous?

Aside from that there are morning after pills, condoms, birth control a baby is essentially a parasite on a mothers body... two cells rapidly multiplying, women do not even need a sperm to have a baby... an egg can be extracted inserted into another womans womb and she will give birth and it will be a woman every single time. With technology? Women don't even need men for a baby. Since so many want to control their body? Hey options... but I suppose that would be deemed immoral too?

What about human sperm all can fertilize an egg but there are killer sperm who seek out and kill this precious thing called life on the way to the egg, others that tie up and block other ones. It's a sports team going on in there, for an entire WEEK.

How about setting those concepts down that weren't there until after birth years later... and taken as belief and dwell in the reality of the situation? There is nothing there, except a potiential for something to be there. No different than saying hmmm I could go eat here or not eat here I could cook at home... and until you make a choice and go eat or cook something? Just potiential... do you want someone to come and decide for you to eat the same thing every single day for over 18 years? Children are the LARGEST responsibility anyone could EVER have. Such a thing should not be taken so damned lightly. Termination should be an option in that, no matter what and at the woman's descretion... without all the brow beating and holier than thou nonsense attached to that decision.

Madness otherwise, we've been in that madness I am a product of that madness, and I worked and suffered my ass off due to that madness... struggled every step of the damned way because they didn;t want responsibility but "took" it, and you want to force this one people?

pffft. get out of here with that noise cause that's all it has ever been.

a reply to: reldra

There are a plethora of exemptions to cover for "too many situations to cover" in section 2. If it happened more than once a year and not under the many reasonable exemptions, than the individual is being horrible irresponsible and will be fined accordingly. Accountability the same way a person is being irresponsible for drinking and driving (doing what they want with their body; legislating morality). But DUI affects other people lives some may say?? Well so does murdering a vulnerable unborn human who has no one to speak up for their rights.

With penalties in place, why would a woman seek to have more than once abortion per year? If it is such a devastating decision to make, a responsible person would make sure it does not happen more than once a year. Any individual who does this more than once a year knowing the penalties is an individual who leads a reckless life, is likely to spread disease with their clearly poor life choices, and very likely contributes to crime.

Like those joy riding teenagers who continue to steal cars and get arrested up to a dozen times in a year, but they don't care and keep doing it anyways. Except this case would be a black hearted soulless schmuck who probably gets the giggles at knowing they can just kill when they want. Any woman who can do that may just be mentally ill and a danger to others.

a reply to: BobbyRockthe death penalty punishes the most horrible human beings on Earth who have undergone their due process and exhaust several appeals through the legal system. Abortion callously punishes the most innocent segment of human life, has no voice, and is entitled no legal due process or protection. It is time for a change to give those vulnerable innocent unheard voices a chance for their due process.

a reply to: Wookiep

One thing I didn't see in your proposal however, was your thoughts on when an abortion is acceptable during the timeline of pregnancy

That requires scientific facts and opinions, so I will have to defer that determination to the medical and science community. I will have to edit in a line stating as such in the introduction paragraph.

Anyways, as this thread explores more from a religious perspective and my proposals are legal issues not considering scripture, I cant really argue from that perspective due to lack of knowledge.

a reply to: worldstarcountry

Most pro lifers are screaming that it's bloody murder. So is it murder or not? Their entire moral argument is that life begins at conception, the fetus is a separate and distinct human being that is being willfully murdered. They'll tell you over and over that it's that simple. If one follows this logic to the inevitable conclusion the woman should be convicted of murder. They don't impose fines for murder, they lock you up or execute you.

Maybe you don't see it exactly this way but many pro lifers do, and I think that is why they are so quiet on the subject; they know this idea won't get public support but deep in their little black heart of hearts they want to execute all of us who committed this crime. A good ol' fashioned, righteous, religious cleansing of all of these wicked women who have sinned so grievously in the eyes of The Lord. May they burn in hell so this country can be great again.

originally posted by: BlueAjah
The penalty for abortion should be eternity in hell.
Of course.

I'm ok with that since hell doesn't exist.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

I am sorry your life has been so messed up
Though I think you missed my position in relation to you deciding the mother had the only rights and the unborn child had none
Irrespective your issues, I know people, maybe I am even one who thinks the unborn should have some rights as well

That was my position that you seemed to have ignored
It's not all about you, I am sory to say

a reply to: Raggedyman

Who am I condemning? I want you to quote me.

Are you talking about my support of the death penalty for first degree murderers? Cuz that's about as close to a condemnation I get in the OP. I am PRO-CHOICE, so its not like I'm condemning women who have had or want to get abortions.

I'm hard on Christianity because on a large part the Church has gone brain-dead. It would be hypocritical to not recognize that fact.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You are condemning Trump and fundie christians for having a different opinion to yours, like your opinion is far superior to every one else's
I am sorry you don't understand the argument, it seems obvious to me

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You are condemning Trump and fundie christians for having a different opinion to yours, like your opinion is far superior to every one else's
I am sorry you don't understand the argument, it seems obvious to me

I am calling out the fundies for pushing their religious views into politics. Furthermore, I am being critical of them for having an inadequate scriptural foundation for their opinions.

So excuse me for having a differing opinion than yours, but when it comes to the Bible, I expect a full explanation with Hebrew/Greek scriptural citations. If you aren't objective enough to provide that, or to really understand why you choose to believe what you believe, then it is worthy of harsh criticism.

So I am not condemning anyone. I demand explanations from Christians. You have condemned me by saying, "there is little Christ in you"......its really a condemnation of yourself, by your own judgment.

a reply to: Raggedyman

I make my life what it is, back then there was no say no nothing... just something in the way. So no need for sympathy; wasn't asking for it, don't want it, don't need it, and it wasn't the point.

The point is? Thousands upon thousands have gone through that sort of thing and are still going through that sort of thing today... I'm a 44 year old middle aged man no need to be concerned about me.

But here's what is being missed... you are equating what is basically a tumor; a growth in the body as a child, it is not a child, a child comes after birth, has a social security number... it cries at any discomfort that does not feel like the womb. In essence; it would rather be back in there for a few months...

There is nothing going on in there... but awareness; but it isn't even aware of anything, other than disturbing noises outside of the womb and this is only at very very late term pregnancy... it can't see, it can't distingush those sounds... all just noise, it doesn't even know what pain is; hasn't been conditioned to know.

Here's what this legislation does... it opens the door for more regulation as a gateway since the law is lain down... a frame work for revisions to hang off of.

You know what they give most women at planned parenthood for this proceedure? A valium if even that it does not kill pain just anxiety... and someone wants to talk about barbarics? Why do they not give them anything? Psychological they want her to suffer for her decision... it is not some walk in the park.

Her body her tumor her decison if that potiential goes to term. Nothing has been wrong with the law the way it was... except those that has some moral belief against it.

Would I want someone to have an abortion if she and I got pregnant? No, I already had a child I know all what it entails... but still her choice bottom line; and I would not hold a single resentment or be upset at her in anyway for her making that decision.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Unfortunately you keep missing the point
You equate the child as a tumor, that's your right and I won't argue that
What of others who see the baby as a new life, equal to that of the mother
It's easy to argue from your own point of view and damn every one else

Stop step back and try to understand the opposing argument, not saying change your opinion, just understand the opposing argument

Some people see that child the way you see the mother, can you not understand that simple statement

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You and I normally agree, but I am going to have to say for once I disagree with your position. You can't call abortion murder, and then suggest that we should stand by and let it occur. So the argument here is about when the soul enters the body, and I think its very clear that it is at conception, in fact, from God's perspective before conception. I am starting to wonder if you have actually faced the reality of abortion, I'll post reality for you brother. It is graphic but please watch the video and look at some of their pictures you need to see what you want allowed in the country.



Photos of abortion reality- warning graphic
www.abortionno.org...


Psalm 139

For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

God tells Jeremiah, "“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;" Why should we think it was any different for you or I?


One thing is clear from these verses. God forms us in the womb, and no baby literally breathes in the womb, so it would be silly to use that as a test of when you could murder a child. I mean you could use your breath of life argument to advocate for pulling a baby by its legs partially out of the womb and then jabbing forceps into its skull and sucking out the brain to reduce its head size and going right on with life. Its morally atrocious and not inline with a wholly good God. I think if you would extend your argument you would see the moral absurdity behind it.

Your argument is that the stage of development of a genetically distinct human being determines if God loves it enough to "make it a real boy." What is worse is your argument is that depending on the level of development of a human being you can rightfully murder it. Now I get you will reject this right away but there is no escaping the fact that all it would take to make killing six year old's acceptable would be simply extending your preferential time frame on the acceptability of murder.

I would also argue that due to God's wholly Good nature it would be impossible for him to reframe from giving a soul to every child irrespective of its life span, for the same reason my mother thinks it would be unloving to choose not to conceive me if given the choice. God gives each child a soul so that he can love and have a relationship with it in heaven.

We need to fight against this atrocity brother not give into it:

Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

Open your mouth for the mute, for the rights of all who are destitute. Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy.

So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Rescue those who are being taken away to death; hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.

The law of identity states A is A. Either something is a human being or it isn't you can't have it both ways. With love brother hopefully I atleast make you think

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I have to disagree with you. Images of mutilated flesh does not prove that a fetus has a soul in the womb. Surgery is a pretty disgusting process, does that mean that surgery is evil too?

No. I expect more than anti-abortion propaganda. I want you to show me in the scriptures where it says that God imputed a soul into a fetus while in the womb.

Psalm 139:13
For Thou didst form my inward parts;
Thou didst weave me in my mother’s womb.

כִּֽי־אַ֭תָּה קָנִ֣יתָ כִלְיֹתָ֑י תְּ֝סֻכֵּ֗נִי בְּבֶ֣טֶן אִמִּֽי׃

תְּ֝סֻכֵּ֗נִי te·suk·ke·ni: to weave together.

Flesh is woven together in the womb, but the soul is not flesh. Instead, the soul is acquired by God. Notice how David is making a distinction: God acquires the soul, but the flesh, He weaves together in the womb.


Read a little further.

Psalm 139:16
Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance...

גָּלְמִ֤י ׀ רָ֘א֤וּ עֵינֶ֗יךָ

The word for "unformed substance" is "galemi". It comes from golem, which simply means inanimate substance, but in the Hebrew culture and mythology, a golem was a soulless zombie...sort of like a statue that is animated by witchcraft, but has no mind of its own.

In Psalm 139:13-16, David is making himself very clear:

1) It is God who acquires the soul, not the biological process of conception.

2) Unlike the soul, the body (flesh) is woven together in the womb of the mother.

3) The fetus within the womb is a golem...it has no soul. It is just extremely complicated biochemical substance.

If you want to debate with me on the subject, spare me the shock and sob anti-abortion propaganda, and show me how you justify your position from the Hebrew/Greek scriptures. That is what I have done, I expect nothing less from you.

a reply to: Raggedyman

No that is reality... your cognitive dissonance against the facts called your belief; is why I am missing the point. I loved being a father and I still am one... I may perhaps be one again but being middle agged more likely grandfather. I love enjoy and respect life to the utmost... I do not let that blind me to the conditions of this world as a reality.

Part of the conditioning is your belief; and with oh so many trying to be the oh so few as in one? That's why we all have so many probems. Excepting reality is the wisdom to know the difference between reality and wishful thinking, fantasy and make believe? Yes part of reality as conception the same as life... but conception is an idea, that one has yet to give ideology too except in the case of an unborn human called a fetus.

Even from a rational stand point with the population nearly doubled since the 1980s add 30 more years, at that rate? We will have 18 billion people on this planet.

I do not care if humans are murdered after they are born, so I do not see why I should care if they are slaughtered before.