Belief in free will is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus

a reply to: Itisnowagain

You're mincing your words. You are saying that we have no choice in making a decision, and you say that a scientist observes what is going directly. This is not true. For example, when an inventor invents something totally new, you can't use your line of thought because the invention is new and not thought of before. It is not given to the scientist nor is it drawn from inside because it never existed there. You are fighting yourself with your own quotes. You are not making any sense. There is no one 'in there' feeding the inventory a new idea.

originally posted by: ConstitutionalPatriot
You are saying that we have no choice in making a decision, and you say that a scientist observes what is going directly.

I am not saying that you have no choice in making a decision - I am saying there isn't anyone 'in there' separate from the brain. The brain is a physical object that is governed by the laws of nature - no different than the planets - it is not being controlled by any outside influence - there isn't something separate controlling it.

For example, when an inventor invents something totally new, you can't use your line of thought because the invention is new and not thought of before. It is not given to the scientist nor is it drawn from inside because it never existed there.

Thoughts just appear. Where do you think the new thought came from?

There is no one 'in there' feeding the inventory a new idea.

It is an illusion that there is 'someone in there' choosing. Do you believe that there is 'someone in there' controlling the brain?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Well you seem to be in there somewhere controlling your own brain.

Is it really that far a stretch to consider the notion that there may be some other external factor or condition that influences our decision making process other than the extremely limited portion of reality that our senses and/or technology allow us to perceive?

Fact is you cannot be sure anymore than the rest of us.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Itisnowagain

Well you seem to be in there somewhere controlling your own brain.

It is not 'my' brain. It is a brain and it does what it does - there is not something separate from the functioning of the brain - it is an illusion that there is 'someone in there'.

a reply to: andy06shake
Did you watch this video?

What thoughts arose when listening to the video?

Do plants have free will or not ? They don't have a conciousness or unconciousness. They just exist like rocks.

Actually do rocks have free will? If you throw a rock and the rock falls , doesn't it mean they have no free will and by your post they have subconciousness that controlls them to fall.

What if there is a person that can controll their conciousness and there are no unconscious processes?

That brings me : Does AI have unconciousness?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

We don't even know how our brain functions in its entirety. Or how/where our consciousness completely resides within the organ in question.

So whats in there then, just software/hardware with our neurons and axons running around doing there own thing in an attempt to convince us of an illusion?

Why can you not at least entertain the notion that we may be more than just the sum of our parts?

Which i'm not saying we are, or we are not, but at least i'm willing to entertain the possibility given our distinct lack of knowledge regarding the subject and organ in question.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

No i'm on the move right now, need to watch later i'm afraid.

originally posted by: andy06shake
Which i'm not saying we are, or we are not, but at least i'm willing to entertain the possibility given our distinct lack of knowledge regarding the subject and organ in question.

There have been scientific experiments done that show that decisions are made by the brain up to 6 seconds before the subject was aware of the choice.
This is a BBC Horizon documentary called 'The Secret You' showing many experiments - go to 50 mins for the experiment showing a decision is made up to 6 secs prior to 'you' knowing about it.
topdocumentaryfilms.com...

a reply to: Itisnowagain

And that does not suggest to you some kind or form of prior injection of information pertaining to the decision before is made/carried out?

Keeping in mind that 6 seconds could be considered an eternity neurologically speaking.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Itisnowagain
And that does not suggest to you some kind or form of prior injection of information pertaining to the decision before is made/carried out?

Sorry - i don't understand what you mean? Can you explain please?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Well if the decision is already predetermined 6 seconds before our minds are aware of the choice/makes the choice, one has to wonder as whether or not some form of short term(from our perspective)clairvoyance is at play?

Given that the 6 second time gap till the response could imply perception of things or events in the future or beyond normal sensory contact.

Mere speculation all the same as there numerous other variables at play that could influence the gap in response time.

a reply to: andy06shake
Watch the documentary and you will see a man placed in a MRI machine - the brain is being watched by peole outside the brain in another room on a monitor. The man is told to choose between two and told to press the button as soon as the choice is made. The brain is seen to be choosing 6 seconds before the button is pressed. The man who's brain is being watched says after the results were given to him that it is so strange to realise that other people knew his decision 6 seconds before he did!!

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Cant watch video and kids in a park at the same time, its frowned upon, typing is bad enough. LoL

I'll give it a peruse when i get home.

Edit: From your above statement would that not imply some form of precognition, or even a gap in the reality matrix we call existence? 6 seconds being a substantial period of time relatively speaking.

a reply to: andy06shake

Ok - let me know what thoughts arise after watching the documentary - it is well worth a watch. The presenter of the show (Professor Marcus du Sautoy), who is also the test subject, is visibly shocked at the end of the program.

originally posted by: andy06shake
From your above statement would that not imply some form of precognition, or even a gap in the reality matrix we call existence? 6 seconds being a substantial period of time relatively speaking.

I have no idea!
What it means to me is that i am just knowing what happens - I don't do or choose anything - I have no control - I am just aware. And this is the conclusion that Professor Marcus du Sautoy arrives at also.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

But essentially your mind makes the decision 6 second prior to choice being initiated, or have i got that wrong?

Some situations transpire in lot less time than 6 seconds where we are forced/presented with the decision making process which raises some interesting questions.

a reply to: andy06shake

That is why the documentary says 'up to 6 seconds'. In the experiment the man is told to think about which choice to make - so the brain activity can be watched - the brain goes from one to the other but it lights up one choice more than the other - the choice is already made even though it may appear that no choice has been made yet.

a reply to: andy06shake

Well if the decision is already predetermined 6 seconds before our minds are aware of the choice/makes the choice, one has to wonder as whether or not some form of short term(from our perspective)clairvoyance is at play?

It is very possible clairvoyance is at play. I mean hey, even if a choice is determined in 1 second or one millisecond before a choice is made, that choice is being made by trillions of cells and synapses which we have no idea are even happening. Those micro forces are what dictate our actions.

Any thing I feel like doing next is determined by those micro forces.

a reply to: andy06shake

Well you seem to be in there somewhere controlling your own brain.

So there is someone separate working with the brain to make choices?

Is it really that far a stretch to consider the notion that there may be some other external factor or condition that influences our decision making process other than the extremely limited portion of reality that our senses and/or technology allow us to perceive?

Absolutely not. Who knows maybe we have a quantum brain which we have no idea even existed that helps us make our choices. God knows what other forces are out there that influence our decisions.
Of course you can never be to sure.

However no matter what choice I make it will always be based on something. Always.