The Trumpling of the Establishment in Europe

a reply to: Puppylove

That is not only inaccurate analysis, but utterly unacceptable colonialism.

If ever there was an attitude that needs winding back, its that sort of tripe.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Like I said, we live in a different world now. We pretty much neutered Germany and Japan and helped rebuild them look where they are now. We never should have gone into the middle east and completely destabilized the region, but we did so, to then not help re-stabilize it like we did with the others is what's created this problem.

Same with how we destabilized Germany at the end world war one. A mistake we didn't make the second time with amazing results.

That said, there's still the backing out and neutral party option. It will take longer to fix things though, but is more stomach-able to people like you.

a reply to: Puppylove

Occupation failed in Iraq, and it failed in Afghanistan.

It will fail everywhere else as well. You know why? Because it breeds radicalism as surely as does bombing, artillery shelling and droning innocent people to tag one or two terror suspects. Show a person a man with a gun, wearing the flag of a nation which has bought chaos and death to your door, and you will not breed respect, but fear, then fury, then more chaos. That equation is absolutely ironclad, and has been proven twice in the last twenty years to flow precisely as I described it to you.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Puppylove

You cannot heal if you are starving, and you cannot do anything else when the only supplies you get are from NGOs that take more of the donation money for themselves than ends up in the mouths of the hungry. You cannot heal if you are living in a tent during the dead of winter, with no heating, no hot water facilities. You cannot heal worth a damn unless you are safe, and there is no where safe for these people, where they can trust that they will not be attacked, not on home soil. Either government bombs or terrorists threaten them everywhere.

Where are they supposed to heal Puppylove? At the bombed out hospitals? In the ruins of their homes, the bodies of the dead still smeared against broken masonry? In mortar craters full of human debris? Where are they going to do this healing, unless they are somewhere safe and warm, with people around them who care whether they live or die, whether they recover or are embittered for all time? Where is this magic supposed to occur?

Nope you've come right of the rails. PuppyLove is absolutely on point with how this should be handled.
You conveniently forget these countries were run by dictators before we got there and mucked things up more. These countries were already abysmal disasters with their own leaders screwing them hard. They as a 'people" never straightened out their own house, so to speak, before ANY of the western nations got involved.

Giving them breathing room and support to do so now is akin to teaching a man to fish instead of coddling him with handouts.

Self determination is more valuable than a hug and a blanket.
Currently refugees usually end up in urban centers and it becomes swapping one getto for another in a new country. Look at Malmo, Minneapolis, Paris for example.

If we want to 'fix" our transgressions assistance in letting these people determine their own futures is the way to go with all the humanitarian assistance we can as they rebuild their nations.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Occupation failed because we did it wrong, pulled out too soon, and armed radicals. We didn't take the time to truly help rebuild and make their lives better than it was before we started. We completely half-assed the whole process.

There's still the pulling out and neutral party option. Unfortunately with our arming all the radicals in the region I don't see that working out too well.

a reply to: Caver78

These people already knew how to fish, but what bodies of water they had to fish are coated in depleted uranium dust, the remains of chemical weaponry, and high explosive residue. There are not acceptable answers to these problems. The quickest way to get these people help, is to do both. Get people safe and warm for now, where we can tend their wounds in safety, AND rebuild, not either or. We SHOULD take refugees, and we should also get their homes straight, but that should be the work of decades, and not under occupation either.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Refugees belong in neutral lands, you don't send refugees into the lands of those who caused their problems in the first place. It's patently absurd to do so. Refugees in the land of their enemies are not refugees, they are a problem waiting to happen. They see us as their enemies. They rightfully blame us. We're not their friends offering them succor, we're their enemies bringing them over and tossing them into our slums.

Even worse, because we aren't properly vetting them, not only are we throwing them in our slums, but we're bringing over the very same radicals those who actually do want to escape from, with them. Resulting in the very troubles they were running from following them here and not only still make their lives hell, but ours as well.

Please, don't be so ignorant. Donny has nothing to do with Europe. People in Europe have ,long before anyone knew who Doninie was, been euro sceptics. However small ass country like Denmark, Croatia or Holland can't compete against India, China and USA on the global market. Those will become #holes in no time if they step out. But they won't tell you that on whichever rightwing fake news spreading site you get your news from. Yeah I know. Now you're going to tell me how all those countries were doing good without the EU 30 years ago. Well, the world has changed since then. A lot !

a reply to: TrueBrit

You are talking out of your backside AngryManagement. There has been no actual left in politics in either my nation or the US for more years than I have lived. What we had instead was a corporate infested, corrupt dingehole, full of former conservatives, oil company shills and other assorted liars. That does not a left wing government make, which you know full well if you have any idea what the term left wing means.

Are you going to contest the fact that traditionally Labour is seen as a leftwing party with the Conservatives on the right?

You don't have to tell me that they are lying scumbags.

It is all done from this leftist ideology.

Right wing parties like UKIP actually opposed the involvement in Syria.

The euro won't survive with continuous repeated attempt at saving a dead black hole system. ECB has been used to only bailout oligarchs and other bankrupt financial institutions.

originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: markosity1973

I don't care how intelligent one might think they might be, but these people, pulling our strings, operate at a level of manipulation that is just scary. Look at the whole Social Justice phenomenon we are witnessing. Never in my life would I thought I would live to see people promoting "Love not Hate" while beating the hell out of anyone that disagreed with them, burning down and destroying property just because they feel entitled to do so ...

Put it that way, it sounds like something out of Judge Dredd, 2000AD Street punks with "Love not Hate" badges and caps riding souped up anti-grav motorbikes with flame throwers, rocket launchers and tungsten carbide clubs with spikes. And that's just the progressive liberal party.

a reply to: AngryManagement

Traditional perception is flawed and always has been, which is why we had a "Labour" party that was not a Labour party, for a decade and a half or more.

If you have to appeal to the perceptions of an utterly duped population to make a point, there is something wrong with your argument.

a reply to: markosity1973

PC really drives me to post things like, well.. this.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Cheers!

a reply to: markosity1973

No, this has been foreseeable for years now, long before Trump announced he would run for president.

The massive influx of immigrants since 2013 and political correctness may well be the final nails in the coffin of the EU.
The EU has shown to be incompetent and unreliable, hence the best way to stop this incompetence and unreliable entity that has inflicted so much damage to European countries is to throw as much sand in the EU engine as possible.

To every German, France and Dutch and Italien citizen on ATS, i would say, actively campain for anti EU parties.

It is coming to the surface that the whole influx of immigrants is driven by the EU and the UN, apparently Peter Sutherland got his wish.
At DAVOS it was mentioned that the influx should be accelerated by the UN officer of migration.
Since 2001 there has been a name for it, 'replacement migration'.
This is of course pushed under aging population in Europe and that mass immigration should be seen as a new normal which won't stop for decades.

This is no doubt in coöperation with the money from and the open society organisation of Soros which also actively pushes for migration into Europe.
This is politically driven and wanted by the EU, hence Merkel simply paved the way for it to happen with her invitation.
Luckely there are member states which aren't so keen on mass immigration, in particular the eastern member states.

This lays bare their incompetence, first they act, afterward they try to forge a solution to the self made crisis.
In this case, the relocation of immigrants which still hasn't taken shape, not even after threats about billions of subsidy that would be stopped if there is no coöperation.

Seeing how close Soros and Hillary Clinton are, how close Merkel is to Clinton, i guess we really should thank the citizens of the US by electing Trump as the president.

Both sides of the ocean will benefit from this.

Mass immigration is only part of the discontent, the other is the euro crisis that will be re inflamed in 2017.
Nothing is solved, contagion is still present, banks on the verge of collapse, they also will anticipate the coming elections, meaning, trying to raise and hold more capital for a possible exit or even the break up of the EU.
This of course means lending will suffer as a consequence.
Even if the break up does not happen in 2017, it is not a question of if, but when.
Those who follow the finacial world a bit will have noticed the widening gap in target 2.
There will be no winners and no losers, there will be gains and losses for the european people.
Gains because we finally have our sovereignty back as a nation, losses because this political dream will have cost us hundreds of billions.
But northern states should be happy, they are not pushed in such a deep crisis as the southern states like Greece, Spain and Portugal by the EU.

I try to imagine myself in a refugee's situation, should I flee to the west never to come back home? Should I stay and risk being blown to kingdom come or worse?

What if I don't want either of those options? What if I want what the west have: a decent life and my own culture in a safe society - but have it in my homeland? That's what I'd want, and I would imagine it's what the majority of refugees would want if they could have it.

Perhaps someone should try asking them what they want, and let's offer to help them achieve it. But it has to be done their way. And why not? They have their culture and want to keep it. I'm sure most don't want to leave their home country forever.

Just ask them what they want and ask them how we can help. No taking over thinking we know what's best for them because we don't. We have to help them their way, not our way. And it has to be offered, not imposed.

Communication. Talking. Listening. It's where it all starts.

The EU s biggest failing was it's lack of actual, real, democratic accountability.
The only people who can make and repeal laws are people we can't vote for.
Then there is the issue of horse trading which always leaves a group of countries forced to enact laws that their eloctorates don't want.

The way to have done it would have been to add one country at a time and fully integrate each.

Though that ship has definitely sailed now and the number of people wanting out grows daily in each member nation.

the number of people wanting out grows daily in each member nation.

a reply to: SprocketUK

Indeed, there is however a big gap between the people and their representatives.
Moreover, Martin Schultz runs as a candidate for German chancellorship with SPD.
For Germany i hope the Germans choose wisely or Germany will become Sweden tenfold.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Caver78

These people already knew how to fish, but what bodies of water they had to fish are coated in depleted uranium dust, the remains of chemical weaponry, and high explosive residue. There are not acceptable answers to these problems. The quickest way to get these people help, is to do both. Get people safe and warm for now, where we can tend their wounds in safety, AND rebuild, not either or. We SHOULD take refugees, and we should also get their homes straight, but that should be the work of decades, and not under occupation either.

Oh no you didn't!

hahahahaha

If the peoples in these countries "knew how to fish" they wouldn't have despots and dictators leading their countries to begin with! Their own leaders fleeced them, kept them from education, kept them poor and fighting for food LONG before any westerners showed up.

In some cases this was their cultural choice so I'm not judging.

But in many cases it was NOT by cultural choice and solely due to internal military coup ect...regardless, until people of these nations rise up like they did in Tiennamen Square and South Africa to learn to govern themselves and value themselves what you are advocating for is ENABLING.

Enabling helps no one.

They never had the chance to learn the basics and still don't know when they get to their refugee host cities. Hot food and blankets can't help the root problem until the underlying problems are addressed.

You're a good hearted guy, but good intentions can be just as harmful as bad ones. Every single time any country has tried to help by putting in a leader who can maybe begin straightening out a country its been a disaster.

The people in these countries HAVE to do this themselves, and we need to keep our big fat hands off while they learn to govern themselves, respecting their choices and just assisting as ASKED BY THEM. This has to happen within their own borders and by the people who live there. If you respect the refugees and not just pity them isn't this what you want for them? Self respect, self determination, free choice?

anything else is more meddling.