Untaught History- Christians forced entire nations to convert at the point of a sword

a reply to: TerriblePhoenix
To me, Matthew 27:50 is clearly referring to Jesus saying: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” Matthew just doesn't spell out exactly what "Jesus called out with a loud voice" when he "yielded up his spirit" (Matthew 27:50). But that becomes obvious from the other account. From another reading I noticed that the order was actually:

"It has been accomplished!"
“Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.”

I got the other order from my first reading. I read it again, now I'm seeing it, John is doing the same thing as Matthew when not mentioning “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” other than saying "and bowing his head, he gave up his spirit." That's referring to the same thing it seems again. So "It has been accomplished!" came before that.

I'll bold some keywords:

When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said: “It has been accomplished!”[whereislogic: what follows is what happens after that] and bowing his head, he gave up his spirit. (John 19:30)

And Jesus called out with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” After he said this, he expired. (Luke 23:46) [So right after he says that, he dies/expires, none of the other accounts phrase it like that with the word "expired", they talk about one thing being said, and another thing happening that implies something being said, how would John otherwise know he's 'giving something up', he would just say he died or something of the sorts without using the phrase "gave up" which relates much better to the phrase "into your hands I entrust"; Luke may have been the only one that found out what he said there exactly or the only one that felt it was worth a direct exact quotation]

I'm a bit more sure from John 19:28-30 that "I'm thirsty" and ""It has been accomplished!" come right after eachother. And it's pretty clear from Mark and Matthew that “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” also comes before the thirsty+drinking events and commentary.

There is no contradiction. The last 2 things he said were:
"It has been accomplished!"
“Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (described by Matthew, John and Mark as "yielded up his spirit", "gave up his spirit" and "a loud cry" respectively)

Then he expired/died.

In that order.

What it's also showing is that they're not colluding to create a legend, they all give their own account related to their own experience (in the case of Luke that would be his research into the experiences of other eyewitnesses) and what they personally remembered, made an impact on them or considered important to specify in detail.

a reply to: CB328

Yeah, as some pointed out you DO learn about it in school. Somebody must not have paid attention in class.

Also, you DO hear about it in church... I guess depending on the denomination, i.e., probably not at Saturday mass. Often times those events are used to teach certain points from 1st or 2nd Timothy (and other areas) as to false teachers and prophets and being led astray.

a reply to: CB328

All religion that is in play at some point forced its way into our lives. That is, how religion lives. It has never been inflicted upon any human as peace, its a controlling system and thus is used as one.

As I have mentioned in my own threads before, religion is a tool used to control. It was never with us from the dawn of man (and women).

a reply to: CB328

Untaught History- Christians forced entire nations to convert at the point of a sword

Untaught history ?

Well the crusades are taught.

And some of those were in response to the MUSLIM crusades.

a reply to: neo96

You are right!
Wow, never thought I'd agree with you twice.

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: FiftyIsthenewthirty
You were doing so well all the way up to "and only, Pope", that should have been Satan, the pope is just a figurehead of 'Deception Inc.' a.k.a. Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion including Christendom, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shintoism, etc. (you can tell when tracing the roots of their beliefs and religious philosophies, theosophies, back to Babylon; see 2nd and 3rd video I posted earlier on page 7, or my thread called "One myth leads to another", which is also an article with multiple pages that I linked in my previous comment). They replace the pope with another every few years or decades or so. You could argue that the Roman Catholic Hierarchy takes a leading role in Babylon the Great with its 1.2 billion adherents (2.4 for Christendom) to emphasize that influence, see also what Jesus said at Matthew 7:13,14. Note that "Chistendom" is not the same as (true) "Christianity" (the following of and obedience to Christ and his Father and his God, Jehovah; who both teach the same things, so if you're truly following one of the 2 you're also following the other, but that implies obedience to their instructions and not having your own version or biased interpretation of their teachings and instructions and how the obligation to follow them works for a Christian in relation to our sinful nature and God's willingness to forgive and in which situations he's unwilling to forgive, made a comment about that in the thread on the religion and theology forum about "Why can't God forgive Satan...."). Such as the instructions below from Jesus:

Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,+ baptizing them+ in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.+ And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”* (Matthew 28:19,20)

Those + signs lead to other bible verses to get a better idea what Jesus was talking about.

Babylon the Great: Reasoning
Babylon the Great: Insight, Volume 1

2 Corinthians 4:1-5:

Therefore, since we have this ministry through the mercy that was shown us, we do not give up. 2 But we have renounced the shameful, underhanded things, not walking with cunning or adulterating the word of God; but by making the truth manifest, we recommend ourselves to every human conscience in the sight of God. 3 If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things* has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination [Or “light.”] of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. 5 For we are preaching, not about ourselves, but about Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God is the one who said: “Let the light shine out of darkness,” and he has shone on our hearts to illuminate them with the glorious knowledge of God by the face of Christ.

Notice the clear distinction between "God" and "Jesus Christ". The clear distinction between "God" and "the image of God", i.e. not God himself. If someone is an image of someone else, he's not that someone else (that would be blatantly ignoring what it's really teaching). Anyway, I was quoting for verse 6 after I decided to post the video below since that's what the song is based on:

These links are to JW websites, if I knew I was debating with a JW I would not have bothered as you guys don't have beliefs you are told them and don't deviate in the least from them ever and your interpretations are just wrong.

144,000 has nothing to do with the amount of people allowed to go to Heaven if you believe that in a religion with more than 144,000 people you are in a religion that doesn't even guarantee salvation theologically, the essential point of religion is deliverance from mortality and destination Heaven for the followers.

If there are a million JW's that is a lot of people who wasted their life trying to be one of them when it is such a low number that it's like .0000000000000000000000000001℅ of the people who ever existed.

A guess of course, it could be lower or higher but you get my point, your religion is a drag and embarrasses Christianity.

That's the only good thing about it.

a reply to: whereislogic

They're just recording what they heard and they don't necessarily need to have heard every line.

Who heard? The male authors wern't even there according to their own accounts, only the females, but that doesn't stop them from telling us Jesus last words. Nor were they at the tomb, so we get differing accounts from no resurection to one angel to two angels etc

Why You Can Trust the Biblical Gospels

Thats the problem, the Gospels have no real authorship and their dates vague. We at least know they wern't around at Pauls/Sauls time else he would have mentioned them. So the big question is, were the Gospels created or at least modified to empower Romes political ambitions. The oldest NT, the Codex Sinaiticus proves that Rome wasn't below altering the word of God, by adding the resurrection into the Gospel of Mark. Was its Romes intention to modifify the Gospel of Mark, to turn a carpenter into GOD, to promote romes pontiff as GODs spokesman on earth.

We also have Gospel of John the Baptsist that tells a very different story of Jesus. That he was a thorn in the side of Jewish priests. Which might help explain why Rome wanted Jesus as their champion to help wipe out Judiasm, eradicating the old for new.

Finally we have a God walking amongst the Jews performing countless miracles. Yet when they had a chance to save his life they instead chose Barabbas the criminal. Were the people of that time blind, or have we been blinded, with Roman propoganda and censorship, through the ages.

Yeshua was a carpenter that taught his version of spirituality. He taught love, pacifism and the right to stand up against ignorance. Is that not enough?

a reply to: glend

The Mandaen John book is not a Gospel or Christian literature.

It's a religion that exists today centered around John the Baptist and "Gnostic" aeonology.

a reply to: ketsuko

Great Comment! It amazes me how few people remember lessons in history class on little things (sarcasm) like the Crusades.

"Christians forced entire nations to convert at the point of a sword"
This should be obvious, just with the Aztecs and Incas alone.

Basic history of violence in the Abrahamic religions:

Jews: March around Killing their neighbors and conquering them because their god said to. Eventually get beaten. Resign to a more peaceful religion.
Christians: March around Killing their neighbors and conquering them because their god said to. Eventually get beaten. Resign to a more peaceful religion.
Muslims: March around Killing their neighbors and conquering them because their god said to.

Islam isn't as old as the other two but I'm willing to bet history will see the same final two stages with that group as well.

If It's Abrahamic it's rooted in Xenophobia, Fatalism and Biggotry. Good people are good people and that is who they are it doesn't come from being a Jew a Christian or a Muslim. Not Every Ancient Jew went out killing and plundering the same with Christians, and it is the same for Muslims. Doesn't change how insane they all are for believing what they do but it doesn't mean that they are inherently evil or bad for what stupidness they believe.

originally posted by: nemonimity
Basic history of violence in the Abrahamic religions:

Jews: March around Killing their neighbors and conquering them because their god said to. Eventually get beaten. Resign to a more peaceful religion.
Christians: March around Killing their neighbors and conquering them because their god said to. Eventually get beaten. Resign to a more peaceful religion.
Muslims: March around Killing their neighbors and conquering them because their god said to.

Islam isn't as old as the other two but I'm willing to bet history will see the same final two stages with that group as well.

If It's Abrahamic it's rooted in Xenophobia, Fatalism and Biggotry. Good people are good people and that is who they are it doesn't come from being a Jew a Christian or a Muslim. Not Every Ancient Jew went out killing and plundering the same with Christians, and it is the same for Muslims. Doesn't change how insane they all are for believing what they do but it doesn't mean that they are inherently evil or bad for what stupidness they believe.

That is too much.

Most members of the Abrahamic religions are peace lovers, not xenophobic, and you are using the extreme examples to claim that the religions are inherently evil.

Which is just not true. Sure they all were involved in wars a long time ago over religion but Islam was far less intolerant than European Christianity in its times of war and they created a great civilization until the Crusades.

Which was a conquest for money as the Arabs and other Muslims were flourishing, Europe was destitute and at that time Arabs, Jews AND Christians lived in harmony in Palestiniane.

That should not be ignored as the same goes for prior to the 6 days war.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: whereislogic

They're just recording what they heard and they don't necessarily need to have heard every line.

Who heard? The male authors wern't even there according to their own accounts, only the females, but that doesn't stop them from telling us Jesus last words. Nor were they at the tomb, so we get differing accounts from no resurection to one angel to two angels etc

Why You Can Trust the Biblical Gospels

Thats the problem, the Gospels have no real authorship and their dates vague. We at least know they wern't around at Pauls/Sauls time else he would have mentioned them. So the big question is, were the Gospels created or at least modified to empower Romes political ambitions. The oldest NT, the Codex Sinaiticus proves that Rome wasn't below altering the word of God, by adding the resurrection into the Gospel of Mark. Was its Romes intention to modifify the Gospel of Mark, to turn a carpenter into GOD, to promote romes pontiff as GODs spokesman on earth.

We also have Gospel of John the Baptsist that tells a very different story of Jesus. That he was a thorn in the side of Jewish priests. Which might help explain why Rome wanted Jesus as their champion to help wipe out Judiasm, eradicating the old for new.

Finally we have a God walking amongst the

Jesus denied being God, FYI, several times.

Jews performing countless miracles. Yet when they had a chance to save his life they instead chose Barabbas the criminal. Were the people of that time blind, or have we been blinded, with Roman propoganda and censorship, through the ages.

Allegory. Not history. You need to find the meaning of the two kinds of resurrection, Lazarus kind and Jesus kind. Ascension, born again, these are spiritual concepts.

As for the Gospels, following Biblical tradition old mythology (Tammuz) was applied to Jesus in different forms, Ishtar descended to he'll, Zoroaster's prophecies of a savior (3 Magi) and being resurrected to the throne of heaven is also borrowed mythology.

It's message is not literal or to be read as historical, you miss the whole point when you read the Bible that way.

Concentrate on his words, meditate on the meaning of the resurrection before death and after as well as Ascension.

Read Apocryphal literature because it was not God who said ''Let's not use everything, just what the Romans choose.''

Yeshua was a carpenter

Architect, not carpenter. Huge difference. It means he was an initiate.

that taught his version of spirituality. He taught love, pacifism and the right to stand up against ignorance. Is that not enough?

And Paul said it doesn't matter only faith not works. Antinomian he wanted people to be like him but he was '' Of the Evil One.''

According to Jesus who said oath takers who swear on anything are. Paul swears before God he is not lying, placing him in that category.

a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

I'm not claiming all religions are inherently evil I'm claiming the Abrahamic religions are rooted in xenophobia fatalism and biggotry, which is the way they paint them selves based on their own histories. The histories they champion aren't extreme examples any more than than saying Europe and America were built on colonialism and slavery is an extreme example. It's the history of the groups not a poll of personal opinions, whether people gave up those tendencies doesn't change how those groups began.

a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

The problem is not only with Paul/Sauls interpretation but also with the Gospels as they appear to us today. Their ambiguity has resulted in persecution and wars.

John 14:7 ... "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.".

So it doesn't matter if the 25% suspect what John 14:7 really means, the 75% will use that as an excuse to spread christianity by the sword to save the souls of the non-believers, a common theme in all abrahamic faiths.

Perhaps the abrahamic demiurge is Yaldabaoth who rules by the sword. As above, so below.

a reply to: nemonimity

They have writings with xenophobic material but it is just not something that can be rewritten and accepted.

A person who interprets everything literally like fundamentalists will absorb that attitude and teach it to the weak.

But the mystical sects, Gnostic, Sufis and Kabbalists are always the peaceful types because they are more esoteric minded.

Prominent Kabbalists consider it a grave error to interpret disturbing passages literally and insist on finding a deeper spiritual and allegorical interpretation.

Although far from immune to xenophobia Kabbalists tend to have high morals.

It's the Zionost political world that is more xenophobic.

I guess my point is that people need to be adults and not take Biblical chosen one or religious xenophobia beyond the pages of ancient literature.

I will say that for the Quran itself at least it specifically qualifies Jews, Christians and Sabaens as those who have nothing to fear on judgment day.

Judaism doesn't specifically condemn non Jews to hell that I know of although the "Righteous gentile" notion is disturbing to me.

Only Christianity states those who are not Christians go to hell.

Not to make it a competition but that is the apex of xenophobia.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

The problem is not only with Paul/Sauls interpretation but also with the Gospels as they appear to us today. Their ambiguity has resulted in persecution and wars.

John 14:7 ... "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.".

So it doesn't matter if the 25% suspect what John 14:7 really means, the 75% will use that as an excuse to spread christianity by the sword to save the souls of the non-believers, a common theme in all abrahamic faiths.

Perhaps the abrahamic demiurge is Yaldabaoth who rules by the sword. As above, so below.

Totally agree there. I also have been pondering if we are made in Yaldabaoth's image (or YHWH'S). It makes total sense to me. I mean, males (generally) are needful of admiration and respect (bordering on worship) from females. Who else is like that? The demiurge. Though, he wants it from everyone. Why not just love? Why worship? Has anyone ever considered that? (a fundamentalist would say that we are supposed to worship him....I mean).
If there is a perfect, loving, "GOD"....why would it need to be worshipped? Why would it need blood shed for atonement of sin?
It's all so ridiculous to me now. I bought it, hook line and sinker, for too many years. Now that I broke free of that religious box, it makes me question the actual "goodness" of the "creator" of this world.
This world is predatory. Oh, and we get the blame for that. Kinda sucks, don't ya think?
Oh, and that is due to "freewill".
Well, if you are an actual "benevolent" being, then setting us up in the first place (like in the garden of Eden) isn't very benevolent if you ask me. Not only that, but we are supposedly plagued with our first ancestors screw up. And somehow we're still at fault.
THOUGH....YHWH CREATED the SNAKE....and let it loose to deceive his creation. Not a very good parent, if you ask me.
(I'm sure all the fundie's wouldn't ask me though, lol).
However, AS a parent...that is not something I'd ever do purposefully to my children. And I think it was done purposefully.
The "my thoughts are higher than your thoughts" explanation just doesn't cut it for me anymore. Basically, whoever thought this world was a grand idea and the suffering we all go through, as a way to show us something important...basically sucks.
I see every day, people who are loyal to the biblical god...suffering, tormented, etc. Yet, we are supposed to face plant on the floor and THANK HIM for all of that. Uh, yea.
Not only that, but Christians (for the most part) sit back and judge those who are "in the world" (like homosexuals or whatever).
It's sickening. It truly is.
Oh, not to mention the fact that we are left to deal with supposed demonic beings. WHY?? Why would a benevolent god allow us to be tormented by those things?
Do we deserve all this? THAT IS my ultimate question.

a reply to: whereislogic

There is no contradiction. The last 2 things he said were: "It has been accomplished!"

Ok. Excluding Paul's explanation of that....WHAT EXACTLY do you think Jesus "accomplished"?
Cause, the way I see it NOW...is Jesus was born a human, was filled with the TRUE Spirit of TRUTH from the TRUE FATHER (NOT YHWH)....and defeated the "god of this world" on it's own terms.
He was not a "blood sacrifice" (as Paul promoted). Jesus gave His life a "ransom for all of us". How? He broke the power that the demiurge had over this world...by allowing Himself to be murdered. He was taking the place of all the animals sacrificed horrifically in the name of YHWH. THAT is why He was the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world".
Jesus loved animals. I don't see Him for one second, slitting a baby lambs throat. NO....He stopped the sacrifices, by becoming one.
Not only that, but His whole message was complete antitheist to the OT God (YHWH). Jesus reached out to ALL of those who YHWH would have rejected or considered "unclean".
WHY do you think what Jesus taught was so radical to the Jews? BECAUSE THEY EXPECTED A MESSIAH WHO WAS A CONQUERING KING (JUST LIKE HIS DADDY). Was He? Nope.
Jesus came humbly, with love, and humility. He broke the power of evil in this world....the evil one who controlled it. Oh, that's not "Satan". Satan is YHWH'S lapdog. Don't think so? Read Job again.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Oh, not to mention the fact that we are left to deal with supposed demonic beings. WHY?? Why would a benevolent god allow us to be tormented by those things? Do we deserve all this? THAT IS my ultimate question.

And that is a good question.

a reply to: CB328

I would't say Pagans are better, after all some do/did have horrible practices within them, but they do tend to leave others with their belief in tact, the Abrahamic faiths cannot share space with others sooner or later they will start stuff with you.