Who's Right? Obama? Netanyahu?

a reply to: Joneselius


Jonesy-

Why would You use the Bible™ for info re: Judaism™? Wouldn't You use their own religious™ book? And wouldn't that religious book be The Torah and Talmud amongst others???

From what I linked earlier that nobody seemed to look at:

The Zionist movement created the Israeli state. The latter is a persuasion less than one hundred years old. Its essential goal was and is to change the nature of the Jewish people from that of a religious entity to a political movement. From Zionism's inception the spiritual leaders of the Jewish people stood in staunch opposition to it.

To this day Torah Jewry remains forever loyal to its faith. Zionists want the world to believe that they are the representatives of the entire Jewish people. This is false! The Jewish people never chose them as their leaders.

The Zionists have deceived many well meaning Jewish people via terror, trickery and false propaganda. They have at their disposal the use of a nearly universally subservient media. Whoever attempts to criticize them puts his livelihood and, at times, his very life in danger.

However, despite the media blackout and easy resort to terror the simple truth remains unrefuted and irrefutable: ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH FAITH AND TORAH LAW THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE WHILE AWAITING THE MESSIANIC ERA!

But keep debating using tools that don't apply...

Got a hammer? Why do I need a hammer, You ask? I have a room that needs "painting"...

originally posted by: JimNasium

However, despite the media blackout and easy resort to terror the simple truth remains unrefuted and irrefutable: ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH FAITH AND TORAH LAW THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE WHILE AWAITING THE MESSIANIC ERA!

And that's why the Jews in Iran say that the State of israel is illegal, and they prefer to stay in Iran, than to migrate to modern day Israel.

But, perhaps as some believe, Hitler was the Messiah, he came and took 6,000,000 Jews out of earth, while according to the Rabbi's the Messiah takes 600,000 Jews when he comes, just a factor of 10 off. So, the mystery of why the State of Israel exists today, when some say it shouldn't, is because some others believe it should, because the Messiah already came.

Who to believe?

Did 6 Million Jews really "suffer" in "death camps", or did these Jews "ascend" to heaven to live in the "Heavenly Jerusalem?"

Of course, those Jews left back on earth, would receive a different story of what happened to the 6 Million, since they'd be upset at not being "chosen" for the ascension.

As the bible says, not every one is taken up when the times comes...

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. - KJV, Matthew 24:40

So, the question is, what do the people left back believe happens to the people who are taken?

That's the great mystery.

The people who are taken know where they are, but those left back know nothing.

originally posted by: Flatfish

originally posted by: Tardacus
a reply to: crazyewok

yeah, one of those other big muslim countries should donate some land for the palistinians to move to and set up their own state,but they won`t because they don`t want the palistinians around them either.

Why should the Palestinians move somewhere else?

And please don't say "because God promised that land to his beloved Jews."

well, look at it logically, the big muslim countries have more open land than they will ever be able to use so why not put it to good use by helping out their brother muslims? it would work just as well if the big muslim countries would give up land for the jews to move to and create their own state but obviously that`s not going to happen.
Why try to divide up that little piece of land between jews and palistinians when there is so much more open land in muslim countries like, Saudi Arabia,iran, Iraq etc that the palistinians could move to.
there are no large jewish countries that could give isreal land to move to.

What`s more important to the palistinians, having their own state or destroying the state of isreal?

if the palistinians had spent the last 70 years appealing to their fellow muslims and working with them to set up a palistinian state in one of those big muslim countries instead of spending the last 70 years trying to destroy isreal,i think the odds are pretty good that they would already have a palistinian state.

The facts seem to prove that the palistinians care more about destroying isreal than they care about creating their own state,they certaintly have wasted more time,money and effort trying to destroy isreal than they have spent trying to create their own state.

a reply to: Tardacus

But many of thess Palestinians HAVE homes and lifes where they currently live.
Why should they have to give all that up and move any more than there jewish neighbours should?

originally posted by: Joneselius
You wouldn't have to look hard to know what you've just typed isn't true.

"for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever." That's in Genesis......

Israel is a people, it's also a parcel of land that God set ASIDE for his chosen people.

The problem with that, is that we can see the whole earth.

If you say, the statement only meant what a particular man could see at that point in historical time, from the spot on which he was standing on that day, then the extent of that land is not much, especially if he was standing at or below sea level.

Now, if he went up to a high mountain, and was standing there when the LORD promised him the land he could see, this would be a much bigger parcel of land.

But, the "Nation of Israel" (the people) have seen the whole earth, because the lord scattered them there, that they might see all the land of the earth.

Hence, the Jewish land has no border.

a reply to: AMPTAH

The bottom line is this, seeing as this is ATS and to be a Bible believing Christian (as in the end times it would be) is a damn crime almost, Palestinians WERE offered a state, they refused. Outright refused.

The ONLY reason, and I dare you to say this isn't true, Palestinians now want statehood is to make their position STRONGER, they want a state and they want to keep pressing in every way for the "right of return" to Israel.

Palestinians have refused statehood when it was offered to them, most recently just a few years ago. THREE times it was offered, three. Not one, not two, three times.

2008, then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert met with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and presented a comprehensive peace plan. Olmert's plan would have annexed the major Israeli settlements to Israel and in return given equivalent Israeli territory to the Palestinians, and would have divided Jerusalem.

Numerous settlements including Ofra, Elon Moreh, Beit El and one other I can't remember would have been evacuated, Hebron would have been abandoned. Tens of thousands of settlers would have been moved. Olmert even says the beginning agreement had been reached with Abbas on refugees and the Palestinian claim to a "right of return."

This is from an interview in the washington post - you should know it, it shows glaringly the double standard being applied.

www.washingtonpost.com...

Here's what they say:

"In our meeting Wednesday, Abbas acknowledged that Olmert had shown him a map proposing a Palestinian state on 97 percent of the West Bank -- though he complained that the Israeli leader refused to give him a copy of the plan. He confirmed that Olmert "accepted the principle" of the "right of return" of Palestinian refugees -- something no previous Israeli prime minister had done -- and offered to resettle thousands in Israel. In all, Olmert's peace offer was more generous to the Palestinians than either that of Bush or Bill Clinton; it's almost impossible to imagine Obama, or any Israeli government, going further.

Abbas turned it down. "The gaps were wide," he said. (May 29, 2009)"

You just wont accept facts will you. THIS IS NOT ABOUT PEACE. It was, and never will be about peace! These people believe in a political system that would slay Jews as a Godly principle.

Here's the map of the plan proposed

You simply can't argue against facts.

originally posted by: Joneselius
These people believe in a political system that would slay Jews as a Godly principle.

You simply can't argue against facts.

I think the Palestinians just want back the land that was taken from them.

I don't think they want to "slay Jews" as you put it.

If the Jews left the land, and went back to live among the nations of the world, I'm sure the Palestinians would support them and be the best of friends with all Jews.

Remember, the Palestinians never migrated to other parts of the world, and then returned to this parcel of land.

The Palestinians are not "coming back" from anywhere. This is the only home they have ever had.

They don't have "another home" to go to.

They do not have "a choice."

A Jewish family can sell their home in New York, and move to Israel, and maintain dual citizenship, migrating back and forth, between the USA and ISRAEL, as they please. But, a Palestinian family cannot do this.

They who have "two homes" should show mercy on the ones that only have one, or none.

What should the Palestinians do?

My suggestion is that they all convert to Judaism, and that would solve the problem.

After all, God gave this land to the Jews, so whoever is found living there must have first right to claim that God as their own too, since God put them there.

a reply to: AMPTAH

Right just cherry pick my replies for your moral justification then.......

As for what the 'Palestinians' should do, oh I don't know, how about stop making terrorist persona's their spokespeople? How about not letting rockets be fired into Israel? How about actually listening to Israels propositions.

You just completely ignored the factual elements of my posts and focused on a purely humanistic element.

Palestinians by their FAITH can't get on with Jews - how naive are you!? They would co-exist as long as they couldn't get the upper hand militarily. Here's PROOF of what I'm saying, ANOTHER FACT btw.

Taken from an interview on CNN between DON LEMON and the leader of the PLO Hanan
LEMON: Is it time to recognize Israel as a Jewish state?

ASHRAWI: We have recognized Israel, in 1993, in the context of the signing of an agreement--

LEMON: Not as a Jewish state.

ASHRAWI: --on the White House lawn. The declaration. Well, it depends. If you want to give religion to states, that is against our principles. I don't recognize Islamic states, Christian states, Jewish states. A state is a state for all its citizens. It has to be democratic, inclusive, tolerant, and has to be genuinely representative of all its people.

Oh really, then where are all the cohabiting Jews in Palestine? Where?

Against their principle yet their FOUNDER was a radical as it comes (speaking of the PLO)!

As for what should they do, well, stop throwing rockets into Israel for a start and actually LISTEN to what Israel is proposing.

Did you even look at the map? Solutions have been offered three times which were more than generous (better than America's plan even) and they were refused. This is NOT about their people's struggle why don't you see that?

The people of Palestine have tragically given themselves over to people who do not care about them and instead focus all their energy on whipping up fantastical stories and hatred toward Israel. Solutions have been offered and they've all been ignored because that's NOT what the agenda is.

originally posted by: Joneselius
The people of Palestine have tragically given themselves over to people who do not care about them and instead focus all their energy on whipping up fantastical stories and hatred toward Israel. Solutions have been offered and they've all been ignored because that's NOT what the agenda is.

If God gave the Jews this land, then why are the Palestinians there?

The same God created all things.

He may have "chosen" some people, but he did create "all" people.

There are "secular Jews" living on the land in Israel, who do not believe in god.

Why are they there?

They don't believe that God gave them this land, so what is their excuse for the right to return there?

Until the Palestinians and the Jews become one and the same, and treated exactly the same from the point of view of "the state," there can be no solution.

a reply to: Joneselius

As a 'Bible believing Christian', where is the messiah that is supposed to grant the return of the Jews in Israel ? Israel is the the fruit of a historical reality, trying to supplant it with pseudo-historical/religiously themed beliefs is likely to end with embarrassing conclusions. Like it or not but, the re-establishment of Israel as the homeland of the Jews and as of the Bible, send us straight into the eschatological chapter.

As of now, Israel is not the nice and polite democracy it claims to be :



It's a Jewish pseudo-theocracy that relies on double-standards, hypocrisy and victimization rhetoric.
Jews are Jews, Christians are Christians.
'Judeo-Christian values' is nothing but the proof you can do marketing with whatever you want including religion. It's hard to turn the other cheek when poking an eye for an eye, it's hard to tell that we are all brothers by insisting of the fact that we're just cousins, ...

Look how Bibi is listening religiously to the parole of his master but forgot about the speech content because it was not in line with his ambitions :