Holy veil of Veronica in St Peter's at Rome is authentic, not a copy of Manoppello.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob in Hebrew culture is the Creator power of the world, is not an impure spirit.

Now in Greek-Latin Religion the God father was Zeus or Jupiter, so logically when those peoples became Christened that was their way to understand the source of the Message of Jesus, is just a question of cosmology, of mentality

Of course Hebrews were not the only ones on earth to venerate the Creator power or the Supreme life, the Indians called them Brahma and Shiva, even the native Americans did so calling it the Great Spirit.

Nevertheless, to equate Yaveh to the Greek deity Pan or to the Aztec Huitxilopochtli is blasphemy and a grave mistake, because they don't have nothing to do with creation.

When the ancient Mexicans called Quetzalcoatl the God that Hernan Cortez was bringing back they knew very well what they meant.

You have a great confusion of philosophical categories, now may I ask you what has this to do with the relics of the historic Jesus Christ?

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

You have a great confusion of philosophical categories, now may I ask you what has this to do with the relics of the historic Jesus Christ?

First you would have to prove that the shroud of Turin was authentic but more importantly whether the historicity of Jesus Christ is beyond doubt, Mostly a matter of faith

a reply to:
You would gave to show......

TheConstruKctionofLight

Really? ... Sorry but ground yourself, come back to earth, such arrogance is laughable.

Well, first at all a person can deny anything, but one thing is what the people decide to think subjectively, and another very different what is already sufficiently registered by historians.

I am not going to waste my time trying to enter in discussions that have been settled down many centuries ago.

Tacitus, Suetonius, Pilates, Flavius Josefus or the Babilonian Talmud are just only some of the many sources saying so.

Everybody along the first to fourth centuries AD , either in favor or against the claims of Divinity of Joshua Bar Josef, accepted his existence as a fact, there are many secular and Jewish reliable sources confirming that.

Sorry, this is a serious thread with a well defined topic, two archaelogical objects that have centuries of relatively known past. This is not a space to bring alternative History novels nor Tabloid sensationalist articles of what could be if certain Historic figures never had existed. I know that ATS has a Literature or fiction forum for those utopia essays..

Perhaps there could be gaps still pending to be filled by researchers, but the general framework is all based on written History, not in personal universes or opinions.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

The Peace of God to all that belong to the Light
Dear Readers,

As a serious researcher member of Above top secret I think it is my duty to open all possible points of view about any topic I start, especially if those points of view have some chance to be reasonable correct in their claims.

There have been recent studies that seems to have uncovered a connection with the Manoppello veil and a [self] portrait that apparently was exchanged in between two extremely famous renaissance artists: The German Albrecht Durer and the contemporary Italian Raphael Sanzio.

This is mentioned in at least two letters or documents that still exist on the mail between these two figures, also it is mentioned that the artwork was almost transparent and painted on silk of byssus, the mollusc which these fibers are made from.

This line of research has been started by Roberto Falcinelli, but involve other art scholars on which he is based, like Paul Badde. He started his research on the Veil of Manoppello indirectly and rised as product of an intuition. By the end of 2001 Falcinelli was working at a paper which he then brought to the International Congress of Sindonology in Paris on the 25th and 26th April
2002 organized by the CIELT. The title of his essay was “Sindonic evidence in the works of Albrecht Dürer”

Giorgio Vasari’s book19 on Raphael Sanzio’s life: " Raphael sending some of his drawings to Dürer, who promptly reciprocated: (ph.19) “By these and other works the fame of Raphael spread to France and Flanders. Albert Dürer, a remarkable German painter and author of some fine copper engravings, paid him the tribute of his homage and sent him his own portrait, painted in water-colours, on byssus, so fine that it was transparent, without the use of white paint, the white material forming the lights of the picture This appeared marvellous to Raphael, who sent back many drawings of his own which were greatly valued by Albert…”

Please check:

www.shroud.com...

the second edition of Vasari’s “La Giuntina” in the chapter on the life of Giulio Romano. Here is the text: (ph.20) “Among the numerous treasures in his house there was a portrait of Albert Durer, by himself, on fine cambric, sent by him to Raphael, diligently executed in water-colours, and finished without using white lead, the fabric itself serving for the whites and the fine threads being used to represent the hairs of the beard, and when held up to the light it was transparent all over. Giulio, who valued it highly, showed it to me himself as a miracle once when I was on business at Mantua”

It seems them that Manoppello instead to be the temporally lost Veronica veil could be an art work that was made not as a relic but as a self portrait by most likely Raphael whose physiognomy matches better with the holy face than the one of Durer, or a portrait made by Albrecht Durer of Raphael face in homage to him. .

Please check:

freerepublic.com...

The situation is that scientific face recognition carried out by criminalists in between the Manoppello Veil and the Shroud of Turin have produced unsatisfactory results: it is not just that the called Holy Face does not match in face shape and certain proportions with the Shroud image but also that the electronic devices used to examine both immediately classify Manoppello veil as an Art work and not a true human face, something that does not occur when they test the Shroud of Turin that is accepted by the equipment as a face photograph.

There has been reactions from the defenders of the supposed authenticity of Manoppello concerning this findings, but all of them are focused in the idea to discredit the study based on the fact that the Holy face does not look at all as Durers face, however they have not yet explained why it resembles a lot the face of Raphael in his late thirties.

Please check:
shroudofturin.files.wordpress.com...

www.patheos.com...

Now, Manopello veil face is the one of a man that look badly beaten, that is an interesting point that still seems to support his possible authenticity, but the face differs from the Shroud one in many features, for instance it lacks of the relatively more crowded beard that appears in Turins cloth for instance.

So for now I still think that what it is stored in St Veronica lateral Altar at St Peters Cathedral is really an authentic relic. I can't be sure what is the Holy face of Manopello.

Thanks for your attention,

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: whereislogic
Perhaps the most famous feature of Turin is the shroud that some believe is the winding-sheet in which Christ’s body was wrapped. A travel guidebook explains: “The most famous—and most dubious—holy relic of them all is kept in Turin’s duomo [cathedral].” It is permanently exhibited in one of the duomo’s chapels, locked in an airtight, bulletproof glass case filled with an inert gas. The book goes on to say: “In 1988, however, the myth of the shroud was exploded: a carbon-dating test showed that it dates back no farther than the 12th century.”
...

Still having fun with relics I see. Now do Saints, or shall I?

How should the practice of venerating relics and images of “saints” be viewed?

The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “It is thus vain to seek a justification for the cult of relics in the Old Testament; nor is much attention paid to relics in the New Testament. . . . [The Church “father”] Origen seems to have regarded the practice as a pagan sign of respect for a material object.”—(1967), Vol. XII, pp. 234, 235.

It is noteworthy that God buried Moses, and no human ever found out where his grave was. (Deut. 34:5, 6) But Jude 9 informs us that the archangel Michael disputed with the Devil about Moses’ body. Why? God’s purpose to dispose of it in such a manner that humans would not know where to find it was clearly stated. Did the Adversary want to direct humans to that body so that it might be put on display and perhaps become an object of veneration?

Regarding the veneration of images of the “saints,” see the main heading “Images.”

Why are Catholic “saints” depicted with halos?

The New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges: “The most common attribute, applied to all saints, is the nimbus (cloud), a luminous defined shape surrounding the head of the saint. Its origins are pre-Christian, and examples are found in Hellenistic art of pagan inspiration; the halo was used, as evidenced in mosaics and coins, for demigods and divinities such as Neptune, Jupiter, Bacchus, and in particular Apollo (god of the sun).”—(1967), Vol. XII, p. 963.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “In Hellenistic and Roman art the sun-god Helios and Roman emperors often appear with a crown of rays. Because of its pagan origin, the form was avoided in Early Christian art, but a simple circular nimbus was adopted by Christian emperors for their official portraits. From the middle of the 4th century, Christ was also shown with this imperial attribute . . . it was not until the 6th century that the halo became customary for the Virgin Mary and other saints.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. IV, p. 864.

Is it proper to mix Christianity with pagan symbolism?

“Light and darkness have nothing in common. Christ is not the ally of Beliar [Belial; Satan], nor has a believer anything to share with an unbeliever. The temple of God has no common ground with idols, and that is what we are—the temple of the living God. . . . Then come away from them and keep aloof, says the Lord. Touch nothing that is unclean, and I will welcome you and be your father, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Almighty Lord.”—2 Cor. 6:14-18, JB.

Source: Saints: Reasoning

The Apostolic Fathers—Truly Apostolic?

...
Exaggeration, Martyrdom, and Idolatry

Exaggeration carried some Apostolic Fathers adrift. Papias thirsted for truth and referred to the Christian Greek Scriptures. At the same time, he believed that during the foretold Thousand Year Reign of Christ, grape vines will produce 10,000 branches, each branch 10,000 twigs, each twig 10,000 shoots, each shoot 10,000 clusters, each cluster 10,000 grapes, and each grape the equivalent of 1,000 quarts [1,000 l] of wine.

Polycarp was willing to die a martyr’s death rather than renounce his Christian faith. It is reported that he was instructed by the apostles and others who knew Jesus. He quoted from the Bible, and it appears that he strove to live by Christian principles.

The devotion that some had to Polycarp, however, verged on idolatry. The Martyrdom of Polycarp states that after his death, the “faithful” were eager to claim his remains. They considered his bones “more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold.” Clearly, the poisoned waters of error were surging.

Apocryphal Texts
...

a reply to: whereislogic

Sorry but you are so much confussed to be giving lessons of what is Idolatry, you are quite wrong on this.

idolatry is a religious pagan practice in which the people decide to adore false deities, idols that they claim represent actual gods, it is out of context in a well done devotion to the Holy relics for different reasons:

1) No body in position of religious Authority is claiming that the Relic is God, the church never has called the people to adore it as a deity, just to show respect to it since at some moment and place it was in contact with a Holy person or with Jesus Christ in this case.

2) The relics have sentimental and Historic value for the members of the church that keep and preserve it as a Memorial act of piety, because they have feelings for who wore them, or for the saints remains, as anybody naturally has care of a painting or picture, or the tomb of a beloved already passed away person.

3) it is possible that the relic may have the property to boost miracles, but this is something that the people is aware it is explained by two situations, the faith of the healed person and the Grace of God transfered to the object.

4) God himself commanded to Moses in the Sinai dessert to make a bronze serpent which had the miracolous power to heal who ever was biten by those reptiles if the person looked at it.( Num 21, 9)


5) the Bible itself teach us that the presence of God can sanctify objects and even places, God told to Moses to remove their sandals when he experienced the apparition of the flames on the bush , he said to the patriarch that since he was standing on Holt ground.

The New Testament is rich in accounts of miracles performed to the people by just their contact with the garments of Jesus like in St.Luke 6,19; St Matthew 14, 36; St Mark 6,56. The story of the woman sick of blood flood healed as soon as she touched Jesus Clothes when he was moving in the middle of the multitude is the classical example, ( St Mark 5, 30; St Matthew 9, 21) .

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness