Unarmed 73yo grandfather shot 'NINE TIMES' and killed by California cops.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

So if a cop takes off his badge and gun, he's redeemed and a good person?

What about a "good person" who chooses to take up the policing profession for the right reasons, to prevent things like 73 year old unarmed grandfathers from being shot? Does he automatically become a bad guy, worthy of derision and hatred?

I was speaking about lumping people into groups based on their appearance and passing a blanket judgement on that group based solely on the actions of a few. Whether or not someone chose to appear that way has no bearing.

Judging a Deputy Sheriff in Florida based on the actions of a LAPD officer is illogical.

Police shooting unarmed people is an issue which has come to the forefront in recent years.

What's the solution, where does the problem lie?

- Do police have poor training?
- Does the policing profession in general attract and employ "bad people"?
- Is society as a whole more "trigger happy" and scared of itself?
- Are criminals being emboldened to challenge police more often?
- Are political leaders not being held accountable for their choices in police leaders?

There are so many factors to consider, and the solution to the problem will not be simple.

Calling all cops "bad" is not a solution.

I have spoken with many men I consider to be "good cops", and it bothers them just as much, if not more than the general public to see an officer make a mistake or deliberately do something bad. They believe that it continually degrades police-public relations and makes their jobs harder.

Working to keep the good ones, purging the bad ones, and raising the training/hiring standards of the ones who remain is a step in the right direction.

Judge each individual event on the facts and its merit, hold DA's, mayors, judges, chiefs, and sheriffs accountable for bad decision making. If citizens in their respective areas can't be bothered to do that, then things will only get worse.

1st thing..person reporting he had a gun get's a public curbstomping. Oh well I'm being harsh..I guess it's the price you guy's pay for the 2nd.

The piss poor decision making and training of police is also a giant fail.

originally posted by: cynicalheathen
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

So if a cop takes off his badge and gun, he's redeemed and a good person?

I struggle to understand how good people can choose a career enforcing unjust laws. Prison guards are another example. With so many nonviolent, victimless crimes either putting people through the system, or being their entry into the system, its hard for me to understand how good people can choose these careers.

I don't think that they are all bad, or that very many of them do bad things by design. But how do you enforce an unjust law? And when you choose this career, how do you not expect people to wonder why you have chosen to pursue a career where, through executing the duties of your job, you are going to knowingly and willingly deny people their rights due to enforcing unjust laws?

Its hard for me to reconcile this, personally. The uniform has nothing to do with it.

What about a "good person" who chooses to take up the policing profession for the right reasons, to prevent things like 73 year old unarmed grandfathers from being shot? Does he automatically become a bad guy, worthy of derision and hatred?

Your hypothetical "good person" should have been responding that night. Seems like they'd have been useful.

I was speaking about lumping people into groups based on their appearance and passing a blanket judgement on that group based solely on the actions of a few. Whether or not someone chose to appear that way has no bearing.

Judging a Deputy Sheriff in Florida based on the actions of a LAPD officer is illogical.

Just to skip to the end here: what other "group" in the US can shoot an innocent, unarmed man in his neighbors drive way, and not be taken into immediate custody for his murder?

There's apparently very good reason to not trust the police. Your lawyer will even tell you the same. Don't talk to them unless you have to. And for the love of GOd, don't have cold hands and stick them in your pocket.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

There is a saying about either the bully, or bullied take that job, I think it has a ring of truth. I'm not painting all with the same brush but in reality..they just there to collect money for the state, and clean up messes.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

So we are doomed to only having flawed men and women bent on doing bad things enforcing the laws of our country?

I refuse to believe that. I believe that you have a percentage of good, of bad, and indifferent or incompetent. In short, a microcosm of the country. Not all cops are bad, not all are good, just like any other profession.

In my encounters with law enforcement, I've offered nothing but respect, and received it in return. I've never had my rights violated.

As far as people not being arrested immediately for murder, it happens quite often in my area. I live in a metro area of 300k people, and it averages 30-50 homicides a year. Quite often the local news will show where a person is a suspect, police have talked to and released them. A few days later, they announce that the same person has been arrested for the murder. It just took them a few days to follow leads and solidify a case.

Earlier in the year, a local municipal officer shot and killed a man ( apparently after several tazings and baton use ) After a day or two, the officer was arrested and charged with murder, and has since been indicted for murder. This was big news at the time, since previously no officer had been arrested prior to grand jury indictment. The officer is currently awaiting trial for murder. The system does work when you allow it to. At the same time, police officers are innocent until proven guilty just like everyone else.

I never said where for anyone to place their trust. I encourage everyone to learn and exercise their rights. Just learn which battles are worth fighting.

I just grow tired of the constant "All cops are bad" drumbeat, because it solves nothing. Get involved locally for change, or nothing will.

a reply to: cynicalheathen

Of course its a microcosm.

In case you haven't noticed, humanities a bit messed up. We are still primates. Exhibiting all manner of typical primate behaviors. RIght down to our laughs and children screaming.

So now we have some folks given guns, put in a grouping of folks where human nature takes over and the "us vs them" mentality manifests. It happens in every single profession. "Us" (the workers) and "them" (the people we work for or service).

To be honest, i cringe at the use of "good people" and "bad people". Its not like we're dogs, wondering who the good dog is. People are people. An array or spectrum of good and bad. Its the decision making, empathy, and impulse control that typically defines what we call a "good person" and a "bad person". But however you wanna slice it.

The point i make is this: we are talking about citizens given enormous amounts of power over other people on the hope that they won't misuse this power in really, really bad ways? Or even just not so bad ways.

If we go on ill end up having to dissect how the laws being enforced empower and encourage police to be crooked. I mean, essentially minimum wage employees given the power to take cash from people that society disapproves of? Read the above article for one city's example.

a reply to: gladtobehere

According to the BBC as it has made our News over here he was a man suffering dementia and was holding a crucifix in his pocket, the police force responsible are also apparently the worst police force in the US and the most lethal whom seem to operate a shoot to kill policy with very little attempt to arrest suspect's, this man was guilty of no crime and was probably unable to comprehend the police whom were shouting at him to drop his weapon, he never had a weapon only his crucifix and was holding Jesus close to himself being an obviously devout man as well.

In my humble opinion the officers responsible need to be stripped of there uniform's and held fully accountable in an unbiased court of law as they are an obvious threat to the safety of the american public.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
...also apparently the worst police force in the US and the most lethal whom seem to operate a shoot to kill policy with very little attempt to arrest suspect's...

Bako cops are in competition with NOPD for most corrupt, I'll have you know. While Bako cops are up there, I'll still put my money on NOPD for being the worst police force in the US. But not by much.

And for much the same reasons. You have a long standing history of political corruption in their civilian oversight. Most local prosecutors are loathe to do their duty when police are involved, since the police can endanger their re-election. But in Bako and New Orleans, the civilian side is SO corrupt they don't care anymore. So the cops get away with murder, literally. While I was there, they were recorded killing someone for being intoxicated in public, so they chased the people to their homes, battered the doors down and stole the phones by force. Then erased them. The explanation was given 'they were all blank because they didn't actually record us. we swear we didn't alter them'. And the local oversight said 'Good enough' and that was that.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Absolutely humanity is messed up. Sometimes I'm amazed we've made it as far as we have as a species.

Calling cops names and various groups rioting helps the "us vs. them" divide about as much as cops mistreating and killing citizens unjustifiably. The onus is on all parties to behave like adults and try to bridge the divide. But you are correct, humans are tribal in nature. If nothing else, the recent election demonstrated this. I don't forsee this changing any time soon.

I use "good" and "bad" to simplify things. Of course I realize that humans are much more complicated than that. Take "bad" to mean corrupt and criminal, and "good" to mean not so.

In reference to police being given authority over others, I fail to see much of a different option. Property and people must be protected. Laws regarding those two things must be enforced for a society to function. I know the common argument is that police just show up after the fact and take a report, and I agree that the individual must be primarily responsible for their own security and safety. But who has the time to do their own investigation, apprehension, file all the mountains of paperwork required to bring a criminal case to trial? Love them or hate them, police do serve some legitimate functions in society.

What are the other options?

- Mob justice?
- Private Security Firms?
- Volunteer Citizen Squads?

Absolutely we need to prosecute and remove the corrupt officers. Maybe I'm just fortunate, there are not a lot of law enforcement related problems in my area. When a problem arises, it's addressed quickly, with either a termination or arrest, and it is done in the public eye. But then, there aren't really a lot of strong public employee unions in the SouthEast, maybe that's a factor. I fully believe that no employee paid with taxpayer money should be able to form or join a union. It's a conflict of interest.

a reply to: imitator

LMAO at that video!!!

Perfect, just f'ing perfect!

originally posted by: Bedlam
It being Bakersfield, the investigation will be both brief, and superficial. Someone once told me that no action has ever been successfully brought against a Bako cop in the history of Bakersfield. I don't know for certain, but the guy was a former Bako cop, so it's likely true.

Bakersfield....meh.

I've driven through it a number of times while traveling from my home at the time (Palo Alto) to the LA area to visit friends and relatives on the infamous I-5

First thing you notice when getting near Bakersfield is the smell. It's godawful. Because of that we never stopped there even though it's a perfect waypoint on the trip for a bite to eat and to stretch your legs. But my wife would have killed me if I tried to pull over anywhere near there.

Not surprised by your statement though based on things I've heard about it.

Terrible shame to see an old, unarmed man shot 9 times. 9 times.

smh

a reply to: cynicalheathen

Step 1: re-evaluate the laws that drive black markets which turn well intentioned, underpaid cops into dirty cops on the take. The environment in Chicago bears this out. Added bonus: increased liberty and freedom for the people, for good or bad.

Step 2: repeat step 1

I don't think its too hard to make a major impact. Reduce the amount of negative contact between the police and public by reducing the points of contact: the laws being enforced. At the same time you reduce the financial opportunities on the take. I can't see how it isn't a win/win.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: gladtobehere

According to the BBC as it has made our News over here he was a man suffering dementia and was holding a crucifix in his pocket, the police force responsible are also apparently the worst police force in the US and the most lethal whom seem to operate a shoot to kill policy with very little attempt to arrest suspect's, this man was guilty of no crime and was probably unable to comprehend the police whom were shouting at him to drop his weapon, he never had a weapon only his crucifix and was holding Jesus close to himself being an obviously devout man as well.

In my humble opinion the officers responsible need to be stripped of there uniform's and held fully accountable in an unbiased court of law as they are an obvious threat to the safety of the american public.

How heartbreaking of a situation. In a just nation the officer will be held accountable as would be those responsible and or looked into for how it came down the communications line as him brandishing a weapon. Their local PD needs to be standing against other ones that may have the same direction when it comes to these situations. Also, education about the mentally disabled, conditions, etc. should be key.

a reply to: cynicalheathen

"So if a cop takes off his badge and gun, he's redeemed and a good person?"

Well when Police take off there badge and Gun lets just say they have less chance of responding to an incident, without being in possession of all the facts, and managing to shoot(9 times!!!) and murder a pensioner with dementia issues.

I mean lets face it was Police who done the dirty deed, nobody else, but hey they were obviously in fear of there life(Not). That old chestnut is getting really lame, time these bastards took some responsibility for there heinous acts of depravity.

a reply to: gladtobehere

Holy hell.

Look, first of all this is bloody tragic.

The reason it is tragic, is that it could easily have been avoided, if states and communities were forced to pay a proper amount out of the tax pool, to train officers for all situations, to make them near to perfect shots, give them the hand to hand capability to disarm rather than engage at a distance, and to make them tactically superior in terms of the way they approach suspects. As it is, many officers do not even spend one whole day of range time, per year, as practice for firearms use.

Absolutely disgraceful.

However, the issue of being armed or not... this man was elderly and had dementia. It was 12.03 AM. No one with a serious mental health complaint should be walking around with a gun on their hip or under their shoulder, and even if the fellow had been armed, I do not care if the fellow was Rambo's crotchety old grandpa, he would not have outdrawn and out shot the police.

They had no reason to fire on him, they had no reason to pull their weapons. All it would have taken for them to have acted reasonably, was to ensure that they could clearly see a weapon before firing. It is not that hard, and thats obvious, because there are good police officers out there, making better calls than this every day. Thing is, they are not the only ones with guns and badges, and that needs fixing, pronto.

a reply to: gladtobehere
Clearly the answer is that the streets need MORE police! That's what I'm being told by Trump at least.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: gladtobehere
Clearly the answer is that the streets need MORE police! That's what I'm being told by Trump at least.

1. Trump assumes office.
2. Public dissent builds and protest flourishes.
3. The executive branch & your local law enforcement takes more authority in suppressing freedom of speech.
4. You are surprised when news coverage of police misconduct falls to zero.
5. God help us all.

a reply to: gladtobehere

A 73 year old man suffering from dementia......
Shot 9 times........
Surely the first bullet would have put the old man on the ground...no?
Where did the other 8 bullets come from?
Did they continue to shoot him as he laid on the ground dying????

And as for people saying these cops are afraid of not going home at night, would you all feel the same if it was your father who got shot 9 times, 9 times, i know how i would feel.

a reply to: TrueBrit

What I absolutely HATE the most about police officers is one of their MAIN GOALS in a situation is to DE-ESCALATE. 75% of the cops I come across and even see ON TV (Cops [tv show] where they should at least try to look good) they walk up to a car with no idea whats going on (just a vague radio call with maybe zero truth to it) and immediately start screaming and being a complete douche bag expecting the person not to feel threatened or disrespected. Yeah Okay, Officers are the BEST at peacefully solving situations.

My second biggest pet peeve about cops and this is one EVERYONE should agree with is: Lets just take lawyers they go to school for like 6-8 years to fully learn and understand the law. Cops get what 6 months training most not even focused on the Book of Laws, if any.

originally posted by: Riffrafter
First thing you notice when getting near Bakersfield is the smell.

Some days it was hard to take. It's like living in a cattle auction barn at times.