Our Lady of Guadalupe is for all, especially non-believers

a reply to: LABTECH767

I never said it was a painting, I havnt seen it and havnt a clue what it is, dont really care either

The idol worship is very clear in the catholic church.
Its your business not mine.
Just dont think that Mexico or almost the whole of South America got any benefits from Mary or the Catholic church.
Still a third world, developing country now.

Its clear to me that Mexico with its Mary miracle is no better of than any other South American country, probably worse off

a reply to: Raggedyman

Actually you need to brush up on your definition of Idol, there was a war in the orthodox church well known as the Iconoclasm, two religious school's fought in a bloody civil war with each accusing the other of heresy, the Anti Iconists' wrongly called the Iconist's Idolator's.

It become's an Idol when you think IT is god, not a sign pointing to god and not a form of Hieroglyph we call an Icon.

Icon's therefore are revered but not worshipped.

In that war the Iconist's won and the Orthodox and Catholic church's made definiton of what an Icon is and what a FALSE idol is, a false idol such as a war god totem worshiped as an actual god is actually man abasing himself and therefore disrespecing the image of God which he was created in while with an Icon a person may pray, wear it like a crucifix or a religous medalion and try to make a solid bond with God though it is only as strong as there faith and the icon remain's just an icon except for the faith of those that have held it and possessed it.

They do not worship these icon's as idol's and though they may see sign's in the Icon's they do not believe the sign come's FROM the icon but rather from God whom is NOT the icon.

An Idol however is regarded as A god by those that Abase themselves and worship it.

Lastly it is not Mary or her Icon that has cursed mexico but rather Drug Cartel's, exploitative greedy men and rotten politician's and corrupt institution's, the once fabulously wealthy nation was stripped by it's European conqueror's and even Maximilian's gold (Which he had stolen from that nation while calling himself emperor) probably hidden in what is today inside the united state's and stolen form it's cave within the bound's of what today is US military land and off limit's to civilian's by the US military in secret.

Now if you want to make a point about corrupt Church, priests and etc then I am likely to in most part agree on those count's but the faith itself is not evil, it has not blessed them with corporeal wealth but remove the crime and I am sure you would find most south american countrys' have a heck of a lot to offer.

If you want to look at recent history though think on this, south america became a proxy battle zone during the cold war between the US (whose intelligence agency's including the CIA had been circumvented and corrupted by the influence of former high ranking NAZI agent's and intelligence operatives taken into the US after the second world war under the auspices of Operation Paperclip, those same Nazi's also had link's to south america and under there influence many junta's took control of many of the nation's to which a lot of Nazi's had fled following the war.

But in the case of Mexico it was always divided between the Godless rich and the religious and simple poor folk's, injustice bread suffering and suffering bred rebellion.

Into this mix both criminal cartel's and also political ideology's which the Nazi influenced US intelligence and heirarchy could not allow to prosper took hold, in order to combat the socialists as in many country's of south America the US or rather entity's within it then funneled money to the cartels and corrupt politician's seeking a divide and keep divided policy to prevent the rise of any socialist entity within the poverty stricken nation, a tactic they used time and again such as in Nicaragua under the guise that they were combating communist's but in essence regardless of what they thought or believe they were doing what they were really doing was funneling wealth into corrupt and criminal hand's and impoverishing further already poor and suffering people's.

Mary and the Holy Icon do not factor into the equation.

Lastly just a side note I am not accusing America of this just certain corrupt interests that use america and have and do use other nations as and when it serves there interests, oh and they also harmed the poor of the US and impoverished it's working class as they raced to consolidate ever more power into there own grubby little greedy hand's so they hit much closer to home there with long term implication's which have taken there time but have finally began to come to fruition showing the harm they have done moving the wealth from the people to the corporations then to a small select few shareholders and banking institution's, that is were they get international and the US is just a cloak of convenience to them as these people are not patriots to any nation only there world spanning cabal, there action's have monopolized the US economy into there own hand's and removed any real enterprise from it's national economy, private business often struggle were before this they would have thrived even in the closed market of the then secularist and mainly isolationist united state's, in other word's globalists are a scam, they are not capitalists in there ultimate goal but rather worse than the most excessive intent's of either the NAZI's or the Stalinist's and are intent upon destroying the US once they have used it making it the scapegoat for THERE action's as they move to another nation of convenience or then turn around and buy up even more of the US - but in the process prevent the ownership of that nation from ever returning to it's own people and so undermining forever it's democratic institutions' and economic soveregnty, guess what they have already done this to the bulk of south america and are doing it now to the EU.

originally posted by: sad_eyed_lady
a reply to: namelesss

"Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what each man wishes, that he also believes to be true." - Demosthenes

I would not wish Hell upon anyone including myself, yet I believe it's existence to be true.

Everything exists!
Truth is ALL inclusive!
'Hell' might not be what you imagine it to be, or it might be exactly what you imagine!

Unconditional Love = God = Heaven!
Here! Now!
Anything other than unconditional Love (Enlightenment) also = God = sin = insanity = Hell!
Here! Now!
That is my Knowledge/experience. *__-

a reply to: namelesss

Everything exists!
Truth is ALL inclusive!

Lies exist. How can truth include lies?

originally posted by: sad_eyed_lady
a reply to: Prezbo369


Respectfully, no it is not.

God tested Abraham to see if he would obey Him.

Indeed, in this tale the god told Abraham to offer his son Isaac as a burnt offering to prove his faith. And Abraham was close to gutting his child before the god stopped him and told him to sacrifice a goat instead.

The tale wouldn't have as much significance with believers if Abraham hadn't been ordered to ritually sacrifice his son, and obeyed unquestionably, before being told not to...

As for the death of Our Lord, this is something that God did for us. I tried to find the simplest explanation I could to help you understand. I hope you will take a few minutes to digest this article's message:

Thank you for the link however I do know what the reasoning for the crucifixion is with Christians. But to shed the crimes (or sins) of one person or a group of people onto another is scapegoating, named after an ancient practice where a tribe would place all of their ills onto a goat before either ritually killing it or just casting it out of the tribe to die in the wild thus relieving the tribe of all it's ills.
And this is what we see happening in the tale of the crucifixion, the apparent crimes of all mankind placed upon an apparent innocent...that would later be sacrificed...

Add to this the fact that we see the tool of the sacrifice (the cross) within everything that is christian and it surely becomes clear that such actions are fundamental to the origins of Christianity, whether the god later condemned it or not...

a reply to: Prezbo369

No where in the Bible does God condone human sacrifice.

The Scapegoats were for purification and atonement.

Christ died for our redemption and salvation.

You will never understand this unless you can believe that Christ died for you and your sins killed Him. God wanted it that way. No animal sacrifice or act of man could ever be enough to open the gates of Heaven.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life

originally posted by: sad_eyed_lady
a reply to: Prezbo369

No where in the Bible does God condone human sacrifice.

But as I mentioned, the god in the bible did command it...at least twice

The Scapegoats were for purification and atonement.

Christ died for our redemption and salvation.

They amount to the same thing...

You will never understand this unless you can believe that Christ died for you and your sins killed Him. God wanted it that way. No animal sacrifice or act of man could ever be enough to open the gates of Heaven.

I understand this is what you believe, however it does not change the fact that there are key tales in the bible that focus on human sacrifice.

a reply to: Prezbo369

Issac was a sacrifice that God stopped and Christ (fully human and fully God) was the sacrifice that saved us.

So nowhere in the Bible did God allow a sinful human to be sacrificed.

God is omniscient He knew Abraham would obey before he asked. That He even asked this surely was to let the faithful know this and ponder this. It shows the trust, love, obedience and fear Abraham had. What a complete trust it was. Why should God consider sacrificing His own Son for mankind if they Abraham would not obey Him?

You choose to focus on these and ignore all the other instances where God condemned human sacrifice.

a reply to: Prezbo369



Purification and Atonement/ Redemption and Salvation do not amount to the same thing.

Purification -

the process by which a person unclean, according to the Levitical law, and thereby cut off from the sanctuary and the festivals, was restored to the enjoyment of all these privileges.

Atonement -

When you apologize for doing something wrong, that’s an act of atonement. Many religions have rituals of atonement, such as Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, on which people of the Jewish faith repent for their sins.

Redemption -

Redemption means to free someone from bondage. It often involves the paying of a ransom, a price that makes redemption possible. The Israelites were redeemed from Egypt. We were redeemed from the power of sin and the curse of the Law (Gal. 3:13) through Jesus (Rom. 3:24; Col. 1:14). We were bought with a price (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23)

Salvation -

deliverance from the power and effects of sin

Christ is our Redeemer and our Deliverer. He is our Savior.