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originally posted by: PhotonEffect
Accidental? What makes you say that? This type of masquerading happens with several other species of spider and other insects and animals. Makes it seem far from accidental.
Wow, now that's a very nice story. But unfortunately it's not one rooted in science, just plain conjecture - at least as it pertains to this species. Unless of course someone can provide the study that's examined the dynamics of this creature in it's environment, mating habits, predation etc, as well as it's genetic make up. Would be helpful to know how many mutations it took for this Poltys to look and behave exactly like a leaf of it's environment. Which gene[s] is involved, phylogenetic history, selection signatures (if there any) and so forth. Otherwise what you said has no real basis in science I'm afraid. It sounds good though.
originally posted by: PhotonEffect
Accidental? What makes you say that? This type of masquerading happens with several other species of spider and other insects and animals. Makes it seem far from accidental.
originally posted by: Greggers
Wow, now that's a very nice story. But unfortunately it's not one rooted in science,
originally posted by: NerdGoddess
You know what really gets me about these types of glorious creatures? How the hell does a spider DNA know what a Leaf cell structure looks like, and is like ahh yeah we'll go with that. That will work wonders for this guy. ?!?!?! Nature, how you so smart yo?
-Alee
originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Accidents aren't one off things you know? They can happen more than once and considering science estimates something like a trillion different species, I'd say it is quite likely for that to happen. Just playing the odds and all.
originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Well of course it is currently just conjecture. Because the spider was just discovered. However its a pretty safe bet since that is how every other species we've looked at over the years has evolved. You trying to dismiss his reasoning just because we haven't scientifically analyzed the spider's evolutionary history is ridiculous.
originally posted by: Greggers
All genetic mutations are accidental, in the sense that they are genetic rolls of the dice based on biological propensity.
originally posted by: Greggers
However, "looking like a leaf" is not an accident. That is a process involving many individual mutations, guided by the very "non-random" pressures of the creature's local environment.
originally posted by: Greggers
If you have a better description of natural selection, please provide it. Otherwise, what I decribed does indeed pertain to speciation via natural selection as it is described in science books all over the world -- erego, it is indeed based in science.
originally posted by: PhotonEffect
I disagree with the usage of the word "all"
Have you ever heard of a mutational hotspot ?
Again, you're only assuming that this is the way it happened. Based on what evidence though? For all we know this phenotype could've been result of gene expression. Maybe it was just one mutation of large effect. Perhaps even a product of transposable elements. How many genes are we talking? We don't know. Small incremental changes over millions of years is not an adequate explanation, especially with zero evidence of it.
I wasn't taking issue with your definition of natural selection. It seems to be spot on. The issue was with your blind application of it in this case.
It doesn't seem like a stretch to say this is how natural selection works and we have plenty of evidence that's how it works in other species so it seems likely the same thing happened here.
originally posted by: PhotonEffect
I wasn't taking issue with your definition of natural selection. It seems to be spot on. The issue was with your blind application of it in this case.
originally posted by: Greggers
originally posted by: NerdGoddess
You know what really gets me about these types of glorious creatures? How the hell does a spider DNA know what a Leaf cell structure looks like, and is like ahh yeah we'll go with that. That will work wonders for this guy. ?!?!?! Nature, how you so smart yo?
-Alee
It starts with an accidental mutation that allows the animal to blend in with its environment. This accidental genetic camouflage would be unlikely to so closely resemble a leaf after the initial mutation, yet gave the creature an advantage over spiders without the mutation. Over millions of years, that particular spider is more successful and passes its genetics on more often, and every time there is another mutation that brings it closer to blending in with its environment, that mutation is selected for by the natural threats and opportunities in the environment itself, until eventually we end up with this thing.
originally posted by: Night Star
I knew it! I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread, but what'd I do, I clicked on the thread! Yikes!
originally posted by: 3n19m470
originally posted by: Greggers
originally posted by: NerdGoddess
You know what really gets me about these types of glorious creatures? How the hell does a spider DNA know what a Leaf cell structure looks like, and is like ahh yeah we'll go with that. That will work wonders for this guy. ?!?!?! Nature, how you so smart yo?
-Alee
It starts with an accidental mutation that allows the animal to blend in with its environment. This accidental genetic camouflage would be unlikely to so closely resemble a leaf after the initial mutation, yet gave the creature an advantage over spiders without the mutation. Over millions of years, that particular spider is more successful and passes its genetics on more often, and every time there is another mutation that brings it closer to blending in with its environment, that mutation is selected for by the natural threats and opportunities in the environment itself, until eventually we end up with this thing.
So that first accidental mutation, as well as countless generations of mutations after, didnt really look much like a leaf, right? It took a looong time before it got to this pretty convincing looking leaf, right?
So, that first accidental mutation, and all those that followed which didn't look much like a leaf... If it didnt look like a leaf then, how did it help it to survive better than its non mutated brothers and sisters? It seems like it would be more of a hinderance than a "force multiplier" or whatever... It wouldn't be useful for survival until the point where it actually looked like a convincing leaf. But according to you it survived across eons of time with this useless, protruding mutation sticking out of its body that served no purpose until the day that it, accidentally, started to look like a leaf.
Maybe you're right. I have no way of knowing. But it sounds a little fishy to me, personally.