Church vs. State in the USA

Had an interesting conversation with an old pal of mine about Religion. He detests all religions, he isn't really a lefty, but probably leans that way. His main reason for detesting religion is that it is irrational. He thinks that it causes more trouble than good. Me, I think it's somewhere in the middle because it is a human creation and therefore flawed. I think the same of Science.
Anyway, he got to the argument that Religion is intrusive to the individual.
That struck me as odd since I never attend church and no one has ever required me to attend church. Then I said, "nah man, Government is the most intrusive thing in a human beings life. It requires you to pay taxes on property you "own" and if you fail to pay those taxes they will take your property. Government requires you obey its rules or it will make you suffer and possibly imprison you if you fail to do so. Government can make you fight and die in a war you do not agree with. Government requires that you send your children to school that they have created and approved of. I don't think there are any churches that have that kind of power anymore, at least not here in America."
His response was, "well they could."

I wish my 1/8 acre yard was actually 10 acres, but it isn't.

a reply to: Fools

Hey, at least government let's us vote for every thing so all those things you listed are our fault anyways, right?

My husband and my sister both explained to me how the government sees the population. My husband said we're just a number, sister said we're bonds, property. I guess kinda like a bunch of cattle meant to bring profit? Idk. But I guess I didn't fully understand it until my daughter started pre-k this and was successfully enrolled with no issues. Next thing I know, though, they're calling me on a daily basis insisting that the only way she could be allowed to stay enrolled is if I get her some shot that she apparently never had, ended up that she did get it actually, and a copy of her SSC. They said they absolutely needed it or she would be kicked out of damn pre-k. That all children based off of their ss# were issued some identification number that would follow them throughout their entire school lives. I don't understand why they let her get enrolled in the first place if her SSC was so important. Now they want to kick her out? I'm a stubborn woman and I have been known to get pretty b!+(#y at times so I'm taking my time. The school system is proving to be pretty weird, indeed.

a reply to: PageLC14

Yes, sort of a catch 22. Not that I would appreciate total anarchy either. It's just odd to me that so many intelligent people do not fear what the government can and will do to them if it wants.

a reply to: PageLC14

I don't want your child infecting mine.

I'm not being rude, but that's the point

If it's public school, and there are 20 kids, none of them need to infect another. All need to have their shots.

You can home school.

originally posted by: Fools
a reply to: PageLC14

Yes, sort of a catch 22. Not that I would appreciate total anarchy either. It's just odd to me that so many intelligent people do not fear what the government can and will do to them if it wants.

What do you suggest with 300 million plus people?

Let everyone do what they want?

As far as taxes go, I like many of the things taxes pay for. I don't take it for granted.

a reply to: Annee

So aside from getting to sidetracked here, can you honestly say that any religion has any sort of physical, emotional, or spiritual control over you?

I mean really, this is a simple conversation. It isn't a rail to say all government is bad, I am just saying that they have more control than any religion could ever hope to have - in the United States.

As such, I am confused as to why so many peops think that there is some sort of religious asshole brigade under every carpet wanting to force them to the pew.

originally posted by: Fools
a reply to: Annee

So aside from getting to sidetracked here, can you honestly say that any religion has any sort of physical, emotional, or spiritual control over you?

No none.

I am a Spiritual Atheist. I was raised primarily Christian, but my mom believed everyone must find their own path - - so I had experience with others.

I mean really, this is a simple conversation. It isn't a rail to say all government is bad, I am just saying that they have more control than any religion could ever hope to have - in the United States.

How separate is the American government from Christianity? Not enough.

As such, I am confused as to why so many peops think that there is some sort of religious asshole brigade under every carpet wanting to force them to the pew.

Because there is in America's Right Wing Government.

a reply to: Annee

How far should the American culture deviate from Christianity? I see almost zero Christian influence at this point. Where do you see this danger? How is Christianity effecting and affecting your life?

a reply to: Fools

Another question is, if Christianity is a real threat to your way of life, how? I am not sure how that is even possible in this current culture. Please lead me to the pond.

Finally, please define "spiritual atheist". I mean that is pretty cool in an Alfred Jarry sort of way, but otherwise meaningless.

originally posted by: Fools
a reply to: Fools

Another question is, if Christianity is a real threat to your way of life, how? I am not sure how that is even possible in this current culture. Please lead me to the pond.

Any law forcing me to adhere to a God ideology - - something I do not choose - - is definitely a threat to my way of life.

America is supposed to be a secular government - - we are still fighting for that.

Laws denying Equal Rights in the name of religion - - do not belong in a secular government.

Laws against a woman being the sole responsible person for decisions of her body - - is no one else's business. Especially religion in a secular government.

Forcing my child to say "under God" in a pledge he's to young to understand. Especially since it was written by a socialist, who meant it to be for all flags from any country.

That's just a few.

originally posted by: Fools
Finally, please define "spiritual atheist". I mean that is pretty cool in an Alfred Jarry sort of way, but otherwise meaningless.

Most atheist's I've talked to recently consider themselves Spiritual Atheists.

Basically, we've had too many personal experiences beyond this world - - to deny there is not something more.

We do not contribute these experiences to a God.

a reply to: Annee

Well, like I said, she HAD in fact received the shot that they had been saying she hadn't. Also, the particular shot they were referring to was one of 3 that have to be administered before the age of one. And they were saying she was missing only one of those.

Now, say she didn't have the shot and I never took her to get it and they ended up kicking her out. They specifically told me that that particular shot was ONLY NEEDED for children starting school under the age of five, that next year she could stay school WITHOUT the shot and there would be no issues.

Well, I'm sorry, but that's just a bunch of nonsense to me.

You think my child missing one shot is a threat to you or your children? Well, My sister has two children that are younger than mine and haven't started school, 2 & 3. She has only taken both of them to ONE drs visit and only because they were sick, turned out to be bronchitis. Neither of her girls have received a single vaccine. Check this out though, they say that your children cannot attend school without proper vaccinations, right? Well, turns out, for the state of Texas, all my sister has to do is provide a signed affidavit stating that she has refused the administering of vaccines to her children because of reasons of "Philosophical or Conscientious Belief." With that, shes her children are free to attend school, unvaccinated, buy will be excluded from school in times of "emergency or epidemic."

Insane, right? Here's a link to some info I found on the subject.

Texas Vaccine Requirements

Next time you want to freak out about my 5 year old missing one lousy shot, consider how many children are possibly attending your kids school without ANY shots at all simply because the parents didn't feel right about it.

a reply to: Fools

I think you're undermining how deeply Christianity has its fingers within Government. It's using it as a vehicle for control. Which is precisely not how it's supposed to operate, but that's our reality. That doesn't appear to be changing any time soon. Although it might have been worse if Ted Cruz had been elected.

can you honestly say that any religion has any sort of physical, emotional, or spiritual control over you?

Of course we can. You don't think decisions in Government haven been made/passed because of religious beliefs guiding their hand? You can't think of an example of that in our history? I can think of many. Like, the discrimination against LGBT for instance. That's rooted in religious belief. There is plenty of instances where Church and State has failed in its separation.

I would also say that systemically indoctrinating children with myths as if it were truth is quite damaging emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually for a lack of a better word.

I see almost zero Christian influence at this point.

Others see lots of it. Which is why people discuss the Separation of Church and State issue quite often.

How far should the American culture deviate from Christianity?

American culture or American Government? Let's not conflate the two.

American Government should be entirely separate from Christianity. Just as the Founding Fathers established.

originally posted by: Annee

Forcing my child to say "under God" in a pledge he's to young to understand.

Wouldn't be an issue if the kid wasn't forced to be in the damn school in the first place.

The irony.

a reply to: Fools

Catch .22, indeed.

In response to accusations of being an Anti-Federalist, or right wing, today, Thomas Jefferson once said,

" I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all. Therefore, I am not of the party of Federalists."

His usage of the word "addiction" is spot on because it's exactly what we are faced with today. We have submitted so much of our liberties to the government's control that now we believe that without it, we could not survive.

Also, seeing as how he was so willing to GIVE UP his belief in eternal life if it meant having to depend solely on a political party COULD prove that government is, indeed, more controlling and intrusive on an individual. Unless, of course, religion is the force behind the govt.

Why is power so sought after? Is there truly a such thing as balance of power? We've been fighting the same fight for so long that in trying to gain the freedom we so desire we're headed more towards our own downfall.

a reply to: Fools

Christians are very important to the electorate, which has influence over all our lives. Laws. Like minded thinking. Twenty six percent of the electorate identify as white evangelicals and eighty one percent of them voted for Trump. But all Christian sects voted for Trump by large margins.

"While earlier in the campaign some pundits and others questioned whether the thrice-married Trump would earn the bulk of white evangelical support, fully eight-in-ten self-identified white, born-again/evangelical Christians say they voted for Trump, while just 16% voted for Clinton. Trump’s 65-percentage-point margin of victory among voters in this group – which includes self-described Protestants, as well as Catholics, Mormons and others – matched or exceeded the victory margins of George W. Bush in 2004, John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney in 2012."

www.pewresearch.org...

originally posted by: Fools
and if you fail to pay those taxes they will take your property. Government requires you obey its rules or it will make you suffer and possibly imprison you if you fail to do so.

Lol.

Like you said, many religions give you a choice. However, Islam states you either follow their laws or lose your head.

Looks like Islam is a form of Government control after all and America just invited it in, free of charge.

a reply to: Fools

Keep in mind that historically government and religion were the same thing.

a reply to: Rapha

At some point I would like to see Trump resign, or face impeachment, but that would put Pence in, which is equally as unpalatable.