Russia and "Yes California Campaign" or "#calexit" Campaign

originally posted by: Rosinitiate

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Rosinitiate
I'm confused. Isn't California broke and suffering a major drought. A state that is drowning in Hollywood filth? They elected the Terminator for goodness sakes.

Funnier still, is a heavy Democratic state with over 50 electoral votes. They must really want 8 years of Trump.

SACRAMENTO (CBS13) – The combined debt of California’s state and local governments is at least $848 billion and could escalate past $1.1 trillion, according to a new report. By the way New York is number one in the country right now owing 17,405 per person. Don't see any way to get that out of the population do you??

Not unless they all become Hollywood movie stars. :p

Or they start charging the United States government for use of California's ports. If California goes, Oregon and Washington will go and the United States would no longer be a Pacific power. California would have the fifth largest economy in the world and Federal income tax would disappear. Sounds good to me. And yes, Putin wants division so that America will lack the political will to stop the spread of Fascism. We have accepted Japanese and Korean Fascism for decades, now we look the other way when dealing with China. Now Trump is cozying up to Russian Fascism. I wonder why?

originally posted by: DJW001
Sounds good to me.

Would you advocate Calexit ?

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke

originally posted by: DJW001
Sounds good to me.

Would you advocate Calexit ?

Only if there is a right wing coup in Washington.

a reply to: DJW001

Otherwise people should not be allowed to express their ambition of sub-regionalism ?

The said political ideology could then be considered as being fully instrumentalized.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Otherwise people should not be allowed to express their ambition of sub-regionalism ?

Did I say that? You asked me if I, personally, support a Calexit. I told you what circumstances I would support and participate in the movement. Of course, people can express anything they want, whether I agree with it or not. (And, preemptively, people are free to say what they want in public... although private enterprises can limit speech or charge for use of the facilities. That is not censorship, it is property rights.)

The said political ideology could then be considered as being fully instrumentalized.

I have no idea what that means. I respect the right of the people of California to secede if they want. (And, again preemptively, I respect the right of the people Eastern Ukraine to secede from Ukraine... provided it is done in accordance with their Constitution, which it was not.)

a reply to: DJW001

originally posted by: DJW001
Did I say that? You asked me if I, personally, support a Calexit. I told you what circumstances I would support and participate in the movement. Of course, people can express anything they want, whether I agree with it or not. (And, preemptively, people are free to say what they want in public... although private enterprises can limit speech or charge for use of the facilities. That is not censorship, it is property rights.)

The circumstances under which you would support Calexit are in case of right wing coup in Washington. This means that you would promote the Balkanization of the United States of America - something that would delight Putin - because someone who may have good future relations with him is in place in DC ... Would you move back from Canada in order to relocate to California then ?

originally posted by: DJW001
I respect the right of the people of California to secede if they want. (And, again preemptively, I respect the right of the people Eastern Ukraine to secede from Ukraine... provided it is done in accordance with their Constitution, which it was not.)

It is not allowed by the USA either.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

The circumstances under which you would support Calexit are in case of right wing coup in Washington. This means that you would promote the Balkanization of the United States of America - something that would delight Putin - because someone who may have good future relations with him is in place in DC ... Would you move back from Canada in order to relocate to California then ?

It doesn't matter what Putin thinks. At least you finally admit that he has ill intentions towards the rest of the world. Did I say that I support Calexit now? There has not been a right wing coup yet. Trump is a fool and a puppet, but the United States still has strong institutions. Hypothetically, if there ever were a coup and the only way that liberal democracy can survive is for the United States to disband, so be it.

What Putin means is: "You can keep your democracy. I'm running Russia as a Tsar and there is nothing you can do about it."

originally posted by: DJW001
It doesn't matter what Putin thinks.

So why bother, let's focus on what he says.

originally posted by: DJW001
At least you finally admit that he has ill intentions towards the rest of the world.

No.

originally posted by: DJW001
Did I say that I support Calexit now? There has not been a right wing coup yet. Trump is a fool and a puppet, but the United States still has strong institutions. Hypothetically, if there ever were a coup and the only way that liberal democracy can survive is for the United States to disband, so be it.

There is one preliminary distinction that you should make : on the Calexit topic, it's not your voice that matters, but those of the Californians people.
You would support, as an outsider, something that would be obviously be a joy for Putin in case the one you view as Putin's puppet is acting according to what you perceive as Putin's way because, after all, those who acting that way at the moment do so because they are pro-Russian assets ... makes no sense.
You should stop seeing Putin and the Russians everywhere and consider the amount of 'Karma' in the situation the US is dealing with atm.

originally posted by: DJW001
What Putin means is: "You can keep your democracy. I'm running Russia as a Tsar and there is nothing you can do about it."

No, what Putin says is :
No one is obliged to conform to a single development model that is considered as the right one by someone else

You should acknowledge that Trump was genuinely elected.
Even if there are a lot a questions to have about your current system but hey, even Putin warned you :

Interesting theory.

It seems possible at least that there was Russian backing behind Trump, just as there are many rumours of Russian money behind Nigel Farage and the Brexit movement.

And it absolutely conforms to Russian foreign policy to try and break up the EU and the USA.

And a Trump Presidency could be so repellent to the blue states that they might just start thinking about breaking away.

a reply to: Kettu

Yes let California be independent and Hillary can be their president.

When the federal funding for immigration stops let see who is going to forward the funds, I don't think Mexico will and once their are independent the money makers and tax payers will move out of the state too.

a reply to: marg6043

When federal funding for California ends, it simply becomes that place next to the ocean.

numbers

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

You should acknowledge that Trump was genuinely elected.

I have. Sorry, I'm all out of troll food now. All I know is that California would do better without the United States than half of Belgium would without the EU.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

You should acknowledge that Trump was genuinely elected.

I have. Sorry, I'm all out of troll food now. All I know is that California would do better without the United States than half of Belgium would without the EU.

Elaborate that thought please. I'm pretty sure it isn't correct.

first they need to split up the state to allow the rural republician areas to exit from the democrat controlled cities.
en.wikipedia.org...

If they don't there will be a civil war in calif.

originally posted by: Kettu
I'm posting this in the grey area after discussing where to place this topic with a few people on here. I belive is the correct place for this pet-theory of mine that I hope others might contribute to.

I've noticed a new movement online, urging for California to "exit" the USA. California does have a massive GDP, larger than some soveirgn nations.

Unfortunately, CA is as divided as the entire nation.

There have been movements in the past to split CA into 2 separate states. How to split it is complicated.

The recommended split is not North and South - - - but, down the middle of the state from North to South - - - making the 2 separate states East and West.

The coastal towns, which include the high population major cities - - tend to be more Liberal.

The north and central valleys are agricultural and tend to be more conservative (and parts of San Diego)

Orange County is a mix of wealthy conservatives and liberals.

Legal Marijuana only past by 55%

Here's a map of that split suggestion. But, there are plenty more.

a reply to: Painterz

What I find interesting is that this movement has a 0% chance of actually succeeding.

California would have to pay its share of the national debt to leave the USA, something that logically would never happen.

So, if this has a 0% chance of working, why is a SuperPAC being funded to support this?

I think it might be worth looking into the donors for their SuperPAC. Not just the names of the organizations, but tracing those organizations back and seeing if they have any "interesting" ties.

There's a lot of fingerprints all over this that indicate that the motives are not just because "Trump won" -- the movement was started before Trump's win was secured, and looking at the leader of the movement and his past behavior in Russia there seems to be a pattern similar to that of other movements in the EU -- movements that have ties that indeed traced back to Russia.

originally posted by: gmacev
Some people hate their goverment so much, that they rather support a foreign criminal regime, which is as bad if not worse. ATS is the place to look if you want to prove that russian propaganda tactics are successful.

If you take the time to study Cold War KGB tactics, and look at the newer operations that Putin has engaged in with his former KGB/mafia FSB buddies -- a pattern soon emerges.

The times change, and the technology changes -- but the subtle social programming and hallmarks of psychological operations can be spotted like a set of footprints.

originally posted by: DJW001
I have. Sorry, I'm all out of troll food now.

Then deal with the fact that Trump is elected.
There is no real ambition for separatism in California.
That's why it is doomed to fail.
The Calexit movement is crystallizing in California, a democrat state, something I would describe as Post-Electoral Stress Disorder.

originally posted by: DJW001
All I know is that California would do better without the United States than half of Belgium would without the EU.

I'd like to thank you for bringing the counter-example of eastern Ukraine. It reminded me of its upcoming deadline.
To be honest, the first example that comes to my mind about sub-regionalism is Belgium.
And frankly, even if I support the idea of self-determination, I generally do not advocate for the fact that people should declare their autonomy.
There must be good reasons for that, and it is obviously not the case in California or anywhere else in the US.
That's why I consider Calexit isn't the right thing to consider for both California and USA future.
There must be good reasons for independence and the only one that mostly seems to matter is that the seceding region is wealthier that their neighbours or, in other words, local economic selfishness over national considerations.
But self-determination isn't allowed at the moment in the US, this means that if you advocate it in case of a 'right wing coup', you would run after nothing but a 'left wing coup'.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Believe it or not -- I agree w/you on Calexit and the implications of it actually happening.

It wouldn't be good for the USA or California.

Sure, California's economy is larger than other sovereign nations ... and I see that being thrown around as evidence they'd make a great country on their own. That isn't really enough though, as its true they're running a massive deficit and have a lot of debt.

This whole thing won't ever happen -- as I said the financial underpinnings are just to untenable. California can't repay it's share of the national debt back to leave. That right there should put the brakes on this entire thing.

Instedad we have its leader (who admitted to wanting to renounce his citizenship for Russian citizenship) over in Russia right now opening up an embassy? What? That's kind of strange considering that his little planed break away can't ever happen in real life. What's up with that?

Like it or not Trump *is* the new POTUS (or will be). That's neither here, nor there. The people spoke, he won more electoral votes.

This is about looking at the larger geopolitical picture and zooming out. Who stands to gain, who stands to loose. Where the money is coming from and is it being obscured behind shell companies?

As I said the proof in the pudding (so to speak) might be looking into the organizations that have donated to the Yes California SuperPAC. I'm willing to bet there are some surprised to be found there...

a reply to: Kettu

Don't be so pessimistic, leaving the Trump-controlled-by-Putin USA in order to proclaim an independent-but-backed-by-Putin California makes no sense at all.

To get back to your OP, do you consider Shervin Pishevar as some sort of would-be George Soros ?