Looking For a Democracy... Please Help

How to find a democracy? The old idea of government is that a divine king rules with the authority of God. That divine government appoints a ruling class to govern with different set of rules as the surfs. A new idea of government is that the government is by the people and for the people according to the consent and instructions of the governed. That all people have equal rights including those in government and those with money.

But its not all or nothing. A king can quite easily defer to the people for most or all his decisions, and this has occurred many times in the past. That would be a kingdom in name but a democracy in practice. And converse to that, a populace can delegate all its authority to a single family. That would be democracy in name but kingdom in practice They can always put in power someone who has the same last name. Or as by an oligarchy, they can place into power two families. So, what people consider a democracy can actually be more of an oligarchy if for example people from one of two families are usually president.

So ask your neighbor, "Who is the leader of your people?". If they answer "my neighbors including myself", then you have a strong clue that you live in a democracy. If they say, "my leader is a man in a large mansion 1,000 miles a way", that is a clue you do not live in a democracy.

There are different levels of consent and agreement. The weakest level is implied consent. Sometimes we have friends that will open our door without knocking, maybe borrow a book without asking. We might be fine with it, or maybe mildly annoyed and not mention anything... a grudging consent. But, if a stranger comes by, we always would expect a knock. So, for people we don't know, implied consent isn't acceptable. There is no implied consent to people we don't know. For such occasions there is verbal agreement. With verbal agreement we can form contracts with neighbors and friends for an exchange. They do something for us and we do something for them. We may get $20.00 as a boy in the neighborhood helping a neighbor with yard work. That is fine for smaller matters, but for expensive ones or substantial matters we have written contracts, especially those with debt involved. A worker will work for an employer for perhaps $100.00 per week. A contract is made. The more important the matter, the more there is a written contract. Today's marriages are done under contract as well. What makes a contract legitimate is that it is understood and agreed to by both parties as can be made evident by a signature by the people consenting. Furthermore, both parties have negotiating power in a real agreement. If I tell my son he must clean his room or be punished, its a contract. Its an order, not a valid contract. And this would still be true even if I wrote him a contract with a $2.00 reward for cleaning his room and had him sign it. He will sign what I tell to sign, and so the contract is not true. So how would I with all my power show a contract with my son? It wouldn't be easy but it could be done if I asked him to write the contract with his friends help instead of mine. This unequal power would still not well prove the legitimacy of the contract, but it would be reasonable to think the contract could be a legitimate agreement. So, consent for important matters is defined by a signed written contract, where both parties have negotiating power.

Ask your neighbor, when you consented to your government, did you do so with a signed written contract? If you neighbor says yes, that is a strong hint that you live in a democracy. Consent is the foundation of democracy, so a strong foundation is a strong consent. A non-existent foundation would be implied consent among strangers. Ask your neighbor, when you consented to your government of which you and your neighbors are the leaders of that government, did you participate in writing that contract? If they say yes, then you almost certainly live in a democracy.

Ask your neighbors, in what way have you personally changed your government over the past few years? If you were not around for the last years, what would have failed to change in your government? If your neighbors tell you they have changed the government personally, they live in a democracy. In a democracy the people change their government.

All these things collectively are the way to spot a democracy. I'm looking for a democracy. Where can I find one?

Nowhere.

Well, maybe Iceland.

Pure democracy is Mob Rule. Those with an IQ of 100 and below "win." Be careful what you wish for.

originally posted by: schuyler
Pure democracy is Mob Rule. Those with an IQ of 100 and below "win." Be careful what you wish for.

Thank you for the reply. For the OP I was defining Democracy to mean rule by the people. Should there be rules? If so, who is it you wish to establish to be the rulers? And which rights do you propose to render unequal in order to establish this ruling class?

At the present day, my rulers are Exxon Mobil, the Rothschilds, and Warren Buffet. Those who have the gold make the rules. If an alien asked me to take me to my leader, I would say that I lead my self and perhaps they mean for me to take them to other peoples rulers. Then I guess I'd take them to Exxon Mobil headquarters after they corrected them self.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
Nowhere.

Well, maybe Iceland.

Iceland has both a strong sense of justice against criminal banking and also the best economy in Europe. Is that a coincidence? I would love to know the values of people in Iceland and how they are winning when the others are such losers.

Government control over the means of production is communism. I do believe that even the Iceland government owns its own means of production of the money supply in that country. I wonder how successful they would be if no such monopoly power existed there.

a reply to: schuyler

The trouble with being utterly against mob rule, is that first of all, although idiots can be very dangerous people, I have met more idiots who knew what they needed to live their lives, than I have very well educated political entities who could name the figure that idiot needed to live on.

I have also met a great many well educated political types, who give every impression of being able and willing to use their advanced intelligence to totally blindside the people who vote for them, with policies not inline with the needs and aspirations of the voting public. The last Blairite government for example, did a sterling job of doing NOTHING like what we wanted in totality. Cleggs Liberal Democrats failed at the first hurdle, by getting into bed with the Conservative party.

I respect your concerns about mob rule, because it has many downsides. However, the central theme of governance as I know it so far, has been that few people I know I cannot trust, have dominion over the law, the finances, and the liberty of those I do trust, and that is a situation which leaves everything, and everyone I care about in a kind of jeopardy that seems an insurmountable threat. What use is a highly educated stable of politicians, if all they do in our name is make deals we disagree with, perform acts in our name which dishonour us all, and lie to the fools amongst us well enough to remain not merely free to roam, but to lead again?

I tire of it. I loathe it. It cannot stand and must not, for while the honour and future of our nation and its people, all of its people are under that kind of threat, good men and women cannot rest, cannot be at any kind of peace. Until we wrest power from those who seek to use it for their own ends, rather than the ends of everyone, until every child starts out with the precise same opportunities, until everyone has a uniform level of access to healthcare, until the public possess control over foreign affairs, funding for public services, the paypackets of top level civil servants, and the ability to write law which requires no translator to effectively understand, we will remain little more than serfs to a power we cannot control, the government which laughingly calls itself our servant.

Nothing is perfect, but we can do an awful lot better than the collection of total bastards at our helm at present.

There is the way you may believe a government should exist, and then there is the way it actually came to be.

originally posted by: fractal5
How to find a democracy? Where can I find one?

Read Confucius and Mencius.
Read Chuangtse and Laotse.
Read 'Six Chapters of a Floating Life"!
They describe what an ideal Democracy was (supposed to be), before we all went crazy (in the West)!

vote trump. he is a dictator, but has no pwer. the alternative has a big one, and is also a dictator. imo, our best hope for the next cycle is trump becuase he is stupid. POTUS has very limited power, unless he has the house, senate, supreme court. even then...limited. by design. america is the last hope for democracy in this cycle. (world)

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: fractal5
How to find a democracy? Where can I find one?

Read Confucius and Mencius.
Read Chuangtse and Laotse.
Read 'Six Chapters of a Floating Life"!
They describe what an ideal Democracy was (supposed to be), before we all went crazy (in the West)!

Sadly I may not have time to read that material. Perhaps you can summarize the main points? I have quite a backlog of reading as it is.

Here is a link to an English transation of "Six Chapters of a Floating Life": watertownhostel.com...

originally posted by: fractal5

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: fractal5
How to find a democracy? Where can I find one?

Read Confucius and Mencius.
Read Chuangtse and Laotse.
Read 'Six Chapters of a Floating Life"!
They describe what an ideal Democracy was (supposed to be), before we all went crazy (in the West)!

Sadly I may not have time to read that material. Perhaps you can summarize the main points? I have quite a backlog of reading as it is.

Here is a link to an English transation of "Six Chapters of a Floating Life": watertownhostel.com...

Ok, for a hint what it's like to live in a Democracy, Read Mencius and 'Six Chapters'.
I'm sorry, but I cannot just summarize it, it's too foreign a concept in the West to lend itself to Cliff's Notes! *__-

One point I will mention is that it says that elected/appointed officials who are wealthy, greedy, will 'create' a country of brigands! That elected officials who have ethics and Virtues will lead the people into peace within themselves, in the land, and prosperity.
As I said, completely alien! *__-