VP Debate for the Less Polite

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: UKTruth

Pence was "his own man"? LOL. Sure, I heard earlier that he was an obvious "alpha" too.

Pence utterly failed in his only important job ... he had no explanation or defense for most of Trump's positions and statements.

The only thing he did was the typical attempt to blame Clinton for what Trump does ... all the garbage about an "insult-ridden campaign"?

Absolute baloney.

Kaine did seem fairly aggressive and I guess it's fair to say he wasn't "nice" ... Pense did try to counter that with a boring attempt at aplomb. Didn't work from where many are sitting.

Pence may have won a few points with the GOP establishment for 2020 ... but he accomplished little else.

Pence doesn't need to apologise for Trump.
That is what the Democrats appeared to WANT from the debate, just like Hillary put Trump on the back foot. Didn't work this time and the reaction I am seeing is that Kaine came across as a nut job.

Apologize for Trump? LOL, yeah that's not what I stated, is it?

Pence is on the TICKET with Trump. If he doesn't understand the man's policies and can't explain or defend his policies, positions and statements, then why should America trust EITHER of them.

Pence came across (as many are saying) as a self-centered wingnut that abandoned the top of the ticket trying to make time on his own. Problem is, no one (including Trump) apparently gives a darn about Mike Pence. (Except for the Trump Tru-Believers™ and other "interested" parties ...)

originally posted by: MysticPearl

originally posted by: SudoNim

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: UKTruth

Kind of self explanatory

Nah.

More like self-contradictory.

Whatever.

Who stars a post that just says "Whatever."

Those who recognize 'whatever' is a perfect response to an obvious troll.

Well, if anyone knows about trolls, it's you bud.

What do you contribute to any thread at any time aside from little sniping comments that mean nothing.

Why don't you go play and let the grownups have a conversation rather than trying to get involved in something you don't really understand, eh?

a reply to: Gryphon66

The beauty of a debate is that each person decides for themselves who is the winner.

So as I think Pence was a clear winner here, I thought Hillary was a clear winner in her debate.

I find it funny that the same people that mocked Trump supporters for claiming he won that debate are now insistent that Kaine won this debate.

But in the end everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I do think it is a shame that Hillary and aine can not defend her record on policy, and so their strategy is to bring up dumb things Trump has said. But, Trump brought much of this on himself by having a big mouth.

So Hillary will do what she has to to try and win. But lets stop bragging about her being a policy wonk.

She nor Kaine can defend her time as SOS, and their strategy is just to make Trump seem like a monster, and yell taxes and bring up comments he supposedly made 20 years ago.

a reply to: Grambler

If a "debate" is to determine the facts of issues, demonstrate that individuals running for office understand and support the direction and scope of the ticket they are on ... Pence failed MISERABLY.

Pence was dull, lifeless, smug and dishonest. He made it quite clear that not even he can stand behind the absurdity that is the Donald J. Trump Presidential bid.

Both Clinton and Kaine are on the record multiple times with policy statements that are consistent and cohesive.

... and now you're desperately trying to critique Clinton with the same garbage arguments that have been used for years.

I know it's hard to resist bashing Clinton, but this is about the Vice Presidential Debate ... such as it was.

Pence couldn't back Trump up. That was his only job. He failed.

Funny thing to me... (besides people so vehemently defending "their" team)... what little I saw of the VP debate Kaine seemed more like trump kind of out of control and all over the place... and Pence seemed more like Hillary ignoring their opponent for the most part.

Least that was my thought.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
Funny thing to me... (besides people so vehemently defending "their" team)... what little I saw of the VP debate Kaine seemed more like trump kind of out of control and all over the place... and Pence seemed more like Hillary ignoring their opponent for the most part.

Least that was my thought.

I thought about making that connection, especially at the beginning.

Kaine is more of a gut-level debater, like Trump. Pence is more studied (*cough* boring *cough*).

Comparison between Pence and Clinton misses the mark for me. Clinton knows what she's talking about; Pence, to his credit I guess, couldn't explain a thing that Trump has said on the trail.

But you're right in seeing a connection between the approach that Trump made with Kaines.

I think both were really aware of not looking "weak."

a reply to: Gryphon66

It has been an interesting election cycle.. not sure I remember ever seeing so much venom from both sides in my lifetime.

I disagree with you that Clinton knows what she is talking about, once upon a time I would have agreed I am not so sure anymore.

But lets leave it at a calm agree to disagree...

Cause I am not voting Trump/Pence (dont trust trump), and I would rather slam my delicate bits in a car door than vote for Clinton/Joker.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: Gryphon66

It has been an interesting election cycle.. not sure I remember ever seeing so much venom from both sides in my lifetime.

I disagree with you that Clinton knows what she is talking about, once upon a time I would have agreed I am not so sure anymore.

But lets leave it at a calm agree to disagree...

Cause I am not voting Trump/Pence (dont trust trump), and I would rather slam my delicate bits in a car door than vote for Clinton/Joker.

LOL ... agreed. Notice that I didn't say I necessarily agree with everything that Clinton says (she's too far right for my tastes) BUT she can explain herself cogently, which is more than I can say for Trump/Pence.

Kaine was a bit manic at the beginning. Hyped up, as it were. LOL

Never watched a VP debate before in my life. Last night I did. Why? I am frustrated with the two actual candidates! I decided that watching the VP choices may give me more insight into the two candidates decision making abilities. Since the VP needs to be able to step up if the President becomes I'll, goes to jail, or is assassinated; which all are possible with both of these old despised candidates.

I actually liked Kaine for the 1st 1 1/2 minutes. He seemed upbeat, happy, jovial. Pense appeared slow, dour, and frigid. Then Kaine's attack approach became extremely annoying! I really wanted to hear what Pense had to say. Kaine became an annoying buzzing fly and made me want to swat him! Pense was steady and calm...yes...professional.

My opinion is that Kaine lost that debate. I could not see him being a leader. Pense proved to me that he could probably step up right now and lead. Unfortunately, they are not the actual candidates...but this debate shows Trump does seem better at choosing intelligent individuals who can assist him in issues that he lacks and be able to step up to the plate and lead.

As far as Kaine's rant of Trump name calling...he repeated his rehearsed lines too much. I admit Trump isn't PC, but even I realize that Trump has never used a broad generalized brush in his insults! He attacks specifically individuals. I will definitely watch the next debate this Sunday. Sure am hoping Trump and Hillary take note of what works and doesn't work by reflecting on the reality of these last two debates!

a reply to: CynConcepts

I guess the fact that Trump was tweeting insults while Pence was claiming that's what Hillary-Kaine has done doesn't matter?

C'mon, it at least matters for comic relief. It's absolutely vaudeville.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

The only people that think being called "racist" is watered down are those that have been racist their whole life, but have kept it quiet or haven't been called out on it. Then Obama became President and people couldn't help themselves and their racism spilled out when it became acceptable, through the birther movement, to let that racism show.

Then, all of a sudden...they are being called out as a racist when their whole life they hadn't been called out. The problem is, these people don't even realize they are racist, that their words are racist, or that their opinions are racist. To them, they are speaking facts or truth...so to rationalize this, they claim that the people calling them out as racists are just "playing the racist card". They refuse to see themselves as racist, even though the majority of the population sees them as racist.

After awhile of this lying to themselves, they start to believe that being called a racist isn't even a bad thing. It's just a watered down attempted insult by the "other side". However, inside their bubble...they are the only ones that see it that way.

The US population has evolved...but some never did with the rest of us...they never will. Only time will cure that as the old thinking literally dies out.

a reply to: skynet2015

Pence appeared calm and collected, and looked like a retired 4 star general

What does a retired 4 star general look like? Do they all look the same? Or is this some fantasy picture in your head?


And are you really saying that Trump is actually a moron...but hey, maybe Pence will secretly run the country????

It seems like there are a lot of people new to politics in these threads.

People don't seem to understand the role of the Vice Presidents and the VP debate.

Vice Presidents are the candidates attack dogs, that's their role. They don't have to look Presidential, they do the dirty work. They also defend their candidate. The main point is that the VP is there for their candidate, not themselves. The entire point of the VP debate is to defend your candidate and attack the opponent.

Kaine fulfilled that role, Pence did not.

originally posted by: kruphix
It seems like there are a lot of people new to politics in these threads.

People don't seem to understand the role of the Vice Presidents and the VP debate.

Vice Presidents are the candidates attack dogs, that's their role. They don't have to look Presidential, they do the dirty work. They also defend their candidate. The main point is that the VP is there for their candidate, not themselves. The entire point of the VP debate is to defend your candidate and attack the opponent.

Kaine fulfilled that role, Pence did not.

Thank you.

/thread

What exactly did Pence not defend Trump on?

Kaine screamed about taxes every other topic. Pence showed that Trump took allowed deductions, and asked Kaine if he does the same, which of course Kaine didn't respond to.

Kaine said Trump was mean to women. Pence said that it was Hillary and her campaign that was relying on insults to win, and that they couldn't defend her record.

Kaine brought up deporting all of these illegals. Pence outlined Trumps plan that we have to make the border safe first and then deal with illegals.

Kaine brought up Trump saying Mexicans were rapists. Pence pointed out that there is a lot of crime from illegals, and showed that Trump said some of them are good people.

Kaine said Trump said countries should get Nuclear weapons. He was misleading when he said that as he kept bringing up Saudia Arabia, and when Trump said this in a speech, he clarified in that same speech he didn't mean nuclear weapons for them. Pence outlined that their plan would mean that we would work with Nato but they needed to pay their fare share.

Pence did his job just fine. He refused to get in the muck about mean things Trump said, something Trump would have been smart to do. he focused on how bad of a direction the country is going. Kaine made himself look like a fool by constantly interrupting and trying to blame Trumps taxes on everything.

Oh, and how good of a job did Kaine do at defending the attacks on Hillary?

What was his defense of Clinton using the foundation to accept foreign donations? He just said the foundation does good work, and then mentioned Trumps charity.

What was his defense of the private server and emails? just saying the FBI cleared her.

What was his defense of her horrible tenure as SOS? To falsely claim that the Iran deal would ensure Iran would never try get nuclear weapons.

What was his defense of Pence saying even Bill said Obamcare was a disaster, and Hillary want to expand on it? No comment.

And so forth.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

I think both were really aware of not looking "weak."

Me too.

Is this Kaine's normal demeanor? I've never heard of him before.

Pence, apparently, was host of a radio show, where he honed his "style".

Reflection: I thought Hillary's debate performance was perfect - - strong, concise, knowledgeable, controlled.

I don't like passive or "Trumpish" out of control.

Kaine, it seems, was the aggressor and more animated - - but, unlike Trump - - knows what he's talking about.

Did Pence try to be Teflon, as in anything about Trump just slides off - - - and I don't have to address it?

-------------------------------------------

I wonder if Kaine's performance will trigger Trump.

a reply to: Gryphon66


It's funny that Trump has an addiction to his phone like Obama had to his phone in 2008. Obama's staff was successful in taking his away at certain times. Trump would FIRE the guy who insists that he give up his phone for a time.

originally posted by: kruphix
It seems like there are a lot of people new to politics in these threads.

People don't seem to understand the role of the Vice Presidents and the VP debate.

Vice Presidents are the candidates attack dogs, that's their role. They don't have to look Presidential, they do the dirty work. They also defend their candidate. The main point is that the VP is there for their candidate, not themselves. The entire point of the VP debate is to defend your candidate and attack the opponent.

Kaine fulfilled that role, Pence did not.

Here's an interesting one - - and he agrees with you.

Todd Graham is the director of debate at Southern Illinois University. His teams have won five national championships and advanced to the "final-four" of a national championship tournament nine consecutive years. He's been recognized three times as the national debate coach of the year. The opinions expressed in this commentary are his.

Last night, Tim Kaine and Mike Pence took up their most public roles yet as surrogates for their leaders in the vice presidential debate. Knowing this, they each had three roles: First, defend the top of your ticket. Second, attack the top of the other ticket. Finally, prove you are capable of being president. Once I got past the interruptions, here's what I heard.

Tim Kaine: B+

I thought the email attacks hit home, especially when Pence hammered away at the fact that it was dangerous for American security. Kaine's answer was only that it was not "criminal." OK, but that's not really the point. He defended everything else pretty well, from the Clinton Foundation to the Iran deal. He was ready with the fact that Clinton apologized for the "basket of deplorables" line. Indeed, Kaine used the old backward-step-pivot-forward debating technique by turning this into an indictment of Trump's lack of apologies for anything.

Mike Pence: D-

Pence was clearly uncomfortable. This reminds me of so many debates my teams have had. In every debate, we are a team of two members. When one of my debaters is young or inexperienced, they make a lot of mistakes that the older member tries to overcome in the final speech.
That's precisely what happened here. Trump, in his stump speeches and the first presidential debate, was like my younger, inexperienced debaters, just saying things without thinking about the ramifications. Pence was like my seasoned veterans, trying to gloss over, re-explain, and even change the direction of the answers given by their partner. www.cnn.com...

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: kruphix
It seems like there are a lot of people new to politics in these threads.

People don't seem to understand the role of the Vice Presidents and the VP debate.

Vice Presidents are the candidates attack dogs, that's their role. They don't have to look Presidential, they do the dirty work. They also defend their candidate. The main point is that the VP is there for their candidate, not themselves. The entire point of the VP debate is to defend your candidate and attack the opponent.

Kaine fulfilled that role, Pence did not.

Here's an interesting one - - and he agrees with you.

Todd Graham is the director of debate at Southern Illinois University. His teams have won five national championships and advanced to the "final-four" of a national championship tournament nine consecutive years. He's been recognized three times as the national debate coach of the year. The opinions expressed in this commentary are his.

Last night, Tim Kaine and Mike Pence took up their most public roles yet as surrogates for their leaders in the vice presidential debate. Knowing this, they each had three roles: First, defend the top of your ticket. Second, attack the top of the other ticket. Finally, prove you are capable of being president. Once I got past the interruptions, here's what I heard.

Tim Kaine: B+

I thought the email attacks hit home, especially when Pence hammered away at the fact that it was dangerous for American security. Kaine's answer was only that it was not "criminal." OK, but that's not really the point. He defended everything else pretty well, from the Clinton Foundation to the Iran deal. He was ready with the fact that Clinton apologized for the "basket of deplorables" line. Indeed, Kaine used the old backward-step-pivot-forward debating technique by turning this into an indictment of Trump's lack of apologies for anything.

Mike Pence: D-

Pence was clearly uncomfortable. This reminds me of so many debates my teams have had. In every debate, we are a team of two members. When one of my debaters is young or inexperienced, they make a lot of mistakes that the older member tries to overcome in the final speech.
That's precisely what happened here. Trump, in his stump speeches and the first presidential debate, was like my younger, inexperienced debaters, just saying things without thinking about the ramifications. Pence was like my seasoned veterans, trying to gloss over, re-explain, and even change the direction of the answers given by their partner. www.cnn.com...

I also was a nationally qualified debater. That means jack squat to me in evaluating this debate. Graham is like me or you, just giving his opinion.

And the debate community is the most progressive one sided community I have ever seen. If you want I can post debate after debate that shows people advocating male and white goncide, the destruction of the United states, and other repugnant things.

I will go one step further than Graham thinking Kaine won. I would say that 98% of the debate community felt the same way. They refuse to listen to any opinions that challenge their narrative. They were using safe spaces commonly 12 years ago before it was the cool thing to do.

His basic assertion here is that Trump is so bad that Pence can't defend him. I have gone through issue by issue and showed Pence's defense of Trump, and when Kaine did not defend Hillary. Yet all of the people that are saying how bad Pence did have not responded. Interesting.

Had Pence focused on Trumps language, Graham would have been writing about how Pence fell for the trap, and he should have spent less time arguing about things Trump said and more focusing on the issues.

Graham hates Trump, thats fine. But clearly his hatred of Trump influenced what he thought of this debate.

originally posted by: Grambler
Graham is like me or you, just giving his opinion.

Did I say otherwise?

It was addressed to Kruphix, because he said this:

"Vice Presidents are the candidates attack dogs, that's their role. They don't have to look Presidential, they do the dirty work. They also defend their candidate. The main point is that the VP is there for their candidate, not themselves. The entire point of the VP debate is to defend your candidate and attack the opponent."