Revisiting Jaques Vallée - Beyond the Control Loop

I've got a basic question for informed members on Vallee ... what recent book of his explains his current theories the best?

a reply to: Gryphon66

I am pretty sure he would not agree with most of what has been said in here.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Gryphon66

I am pretty sure he would not agree with most of what has been said in here.

Another reason I'd like to read his actual words. Do you have a suggestion of a good summary of his Current thought, written by him?

a reply to: Gryphon66

this maybe?

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Gryphon66

this maybe?

Awesome. Have you read it?

The reason I'm asking is that Amazon has a lot of the books but doesn't do that well at presenting a historical picture.

Vallee has been writing since the 60s. His positions and ideas have changed over time.

Thanks for the recommendation.

a reply to: Peeple

The "Ultimate truth" is that no being can know about what is beyond their perceptual range.

Those beings who don't keep this core truth in mind are simply ignorant.

Those who do keep this in mind fall into one of three or so categories:

1) They are scientists and admit their ignorance, and seek to reduce it...but know they will never reduce it all.

2) They deceive themselves and others- they are religious.

3) There are those who deceive themselves (and sometimes others)- "honestly" - these are the "The Magicians". They know that they don't "know", but still play the game.

I now include my favorite quote in the world:

THE PRINCE AND THE MAGICIAN 
from The Magus by John Fowles 

Once upon a time there was a young prince, who believed in all things but three. He did not believe in princesses, he did not believe in islands, he did not believe in God. His father, the king, told him that such things did not exist. As there were no princesses or islands in his father's domaines, and no sign of God, the young prince believed his father. 

But then, one day, the prince ran away from his palace. He came to the next land. There, to his astonishment, from every coast he saw islands, and on these islands, strange and troubling creatures whom he dared not name. As he was searching for a boat, a man in full evening dress approached him along the shore. 

"Are those real islands?" asked the young prince. 

"Of course they are real islands," said the man in evening dress. 

"And those strange and troubling creatures?" 

"They are all genuine and authentic princesses." 

"Then God also must exist!" cried the prince. 

"I am God," replied the man in full evening dress, with a bow. 

The young prince returned home as quickly as he could. 

"So you are back," said his father, the king. 

"I have seen islands, I have seen princesses, I have seen God," said the prince reproachfully. 

The king was unmoved. "Neither real islands, nor real princesses, nor a real God, exist." 

"I saw them!" 

"Tell me how God was dressed." 

"God was in full evening dress." 

"Were the sleeves of his coat rolled back?" 

The prince remembered that they had been. The king smiled. "That is the uniform of a magician. You have been deceived." 

At this, the prince returned to the next land, and went to the same shore, where once again he came upon the man in full evening dress. "My father the king has told me who you are," said the young prince indignantly. "You deceived me last time, but not again. Now I know that those are not real islands and real princesses, because you are a magician." 

The man on the shore smiled. "It is you who are deceived, my boy. In your father's kingdom there are many islands and many princesses. But you are under your father’s spell, so you cannot see them." 

The prince returned pensively home. When he saw his father, he looked him in the eyes. "Father, is it true that you are not a real king, but only a magician?" 

The king smiled, and rolled back his sleeves. "Yes, my son, I am only a magician." 

"Then the man on the shore was God." 

"The man on the shore was another magician." 

"I must know the real truth, the truth beyond magic." 

"There is no truth beyond magic," said the king. 

The prince was full of sadness. He said, "I will kill myself." 

The king by magic caused death to appear. Death stood in the door and beckoned to the prince. The prince shuddered. He remembered the beautiful but unreal islands and the unreal but beautiful princesses "Very well," he said. "I can bear it." 

"You see, my son," said the king, "you too now begin to be a magician." 

It's impossible to start understanding the control loop, without understanding the nature of "magicians".

Enjoy.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Awesome quote, KPB.

Personally, my favorite Vallee book is Messengers of Deception.

Ironically, and I mean this to be completely serious, if you want a good summary of Vallee's position on UFOs then look no further than the X Files episode titled 'Jose Chungs From Outer Space' from season 3. The episode was an homage to Vallee and his book Messengers of Deception.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Or like "I've seen the light"? Is it magic, or just nature and we exploit them? "God (or whatever your preference is) please make this make that..." like talking to a servant.
Where is the symbiosis in magic?

a reply to: AshFan

It far easier to shoot holes in somebody else's ideas than make your own, believe it, then defend it. Seems humans are really good at destroying... probably why Angry Birds is so popular!

I do not think one theory fits all. Just like one engine does not cover every situation (from a lawnmower to 777) no one theory can cover UFO/ET/ETH/Black Triangles/Secret Space Program/Zeta Reticulans/etc. Some UFO sightings maybe nuts and bolts (really, graphene and carbon fiber), some may be ours, some theirs, some may be plasma, some... who knows?! So why choose just one theory? I try to keep my mind open and hope my intellect does not rinse away in the water!!

a reply to: Peeple

I've been sitting back observing the evolution of my thread.....I have to say everyone's ideologies and data facts are impressive this far that I have read. The last thing you typed in your reply to ch1n1 " I mean we're collectively doubting reality, aren't we"....Again it is relative to the eye of the beholder.....reality for some maybe be fiction to others and vice versa...it really boils down to physical evidence,....physical cause and affect.....I mean this mental war if I'm right your wrong could go back and forth forever...I'd say it's a blundering folly to expect factual proof on how each individual will react to any certain experience...where as I see an attractive individual...you or any other may see the same person as a hidious visage...point I'm driving towards here is this....we all have different perceptions on everything we encounter in life...we all have our own uniuqe ways of processing our personal information intake at a levels we as individuals are comfortable with....some people tell stories for attention, some agree with others just to fit in with the larger group away from isolation, some people have interesting hallucinations that were confused with reality....some people really have had experiences with the super unknown....and some may truely be enlightened to the true nature that remains a mystery for so many.....collective on a small scale,yes....collective on large scale...unlikely...possibilities are to random.. like the universe itself.

a reply to: AndroidJimmy

Exactly the "I boil it so it vaporises into steam" moment is missing.
What is it doing to us? People change after the experience, starting to ask questions, trying to understand. No matter what woo you consider possible. And you got something you were interested in or you wouldn't be here.
Your secret guilty story about... something that made you interested, asking questions.

a reply to: Peeple

Symbiosis (also known as cooperation) is half of evolution on (presumably) all levels.

The other half is competition.

I know that it may not appear that way when it comes to "tricksters" but its true even in that case.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

And what about our own behaviour? Towards the planet, all living things? What are we doing for them? I don't worry as much about tricksters as about how we would look like.
What is our not-competition half?

a reply to: Gryphon66

Well Dr. Vallee sat on my couch for 6 hours and we discussed his views. (And mine).

2 hours at Olive Garden too...now that got some looks!

Id recommend The Invisible College and Messengers of Deception actually...over Forbidden Science. But eventually all his books...

Kev

a reply to: Peeple

We are the physical hardware that runs the simulations for the Tricksters.

Of course we do that mostly unknowingly and unwillingly...

Some people do it willingly.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Well that's your opinion. And you are entitled to have that. But I disagree.
Simply because of the bad quality of the perception. Many bugs, normally. You see what you want to see. That doesn't always make sense. To others to yourself. A mixture of both.
What do you dream? Can you always explain why you dream that? That's still different than woo experiences. When reality stops to make sense.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

That was pure magic Kev! And I say that most sincerely with my sleeves rolled back.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: billydebunker

Tell me how radiation poisoning is a product of hypnosis? We both know that is not likely the case.

Believing or the false memory you had radiation poising certainly would be. hypnosis is not your friend in this case.

I was referring to the Cash-Landrum case which we were discussing earlier in this thread. The radiation poisoning was determined by a radiologist.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: billydebunker

That aside, there are over three thousand physical trace sightings of UFOs, do some homework on the issue.

When people throw around numbers like this and tell you to "look it up", its usually bullcrap. Its easy enough to supply a link to shut everyone up.

And yet with less effort than it took for you to complain in a post about it, you could have looked into it. Imagine that.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: Gryphon66

Well Dr. Vallee sat on my couch for 6 hours and we discussed his views. (And mine).

2 hours at Olive Garden too...now that got some looks!

Id recommend The Invisible College and Messengers of Deception actually...over Forbidden Science. But eventually all his books...

Kev

When you got the check at the Olive Garden, did Vallee insist that the check was not physical, just a control construct to encourage you to run out on the bill?