Revisiting Jaques Vallée - Beyond the Control Loop

a reply to: tetra50

Yes indeed. Hiya Tetra.

The GUT is the one who turned me onto JV.

And when i get obsessed about something, sometimes i move heaven and Earth.

I really wanted to meet him to compare notes.

Kev

a reply to: Peeple

The explanation it is both, physical and psychological makes the most sense.

I suppose you could say that to just about everything we interact with. For me, it seems to come down to separating subjective from objective reality. The more ambiguous and undefined something is, the harder it will be to separate those things. Some can come to believe that their subjective experience is an objective one. This is tricky enough normally. If this thing we are talking about somehow alters people's perceptions, then there really is no way to observe it objectively. just some random thoughts...

Philosophically, I look at the ETH idea in terms of Buddhist principles.

A Buddhist once on a forum said in relation to this conversation.

"Whether aliens are here or not doesn’t affect my condition of suffering"

On a literal level he’s right but...

Of course it might if these aliens are here to deal with nuclear weapons issues or even what they call scalar weaponry, something worst than nuclear, or the endangered environment.

I didn’t bring this up to proselytize since I’m not a Buddhist anyway, but I brought it up to emphasize the value of discerning the reason for the UFO phenomenon and that its vital in understanding what the hell it is all about.

Analogy:

If you have 5 toddlers in an enclosed space, a playpen for example, for a long time and everyday they just play

One day all of a sudden a grown up starts showing up everyday

There’s got to be a reason for that

Find out the reason and you may discern who the grownup is

But of course this may have to occur when the toddlers grow up some

The danger in all of this is the ignorance

Maybe one of the toddlers has contacted a deadly virus and the grownup does or doesn’t even know but only suspects i.e., their appearance.

Now we’ve grown up enough to perceive the adult

Are we grown up enough to accept their judgment is the question

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Nearly everyone drawn to the "Vallee core observations" tries to extract "truth" and "purpose" and "meaning" from them.

Only it doesn't work that way in this case.

All my friends and everyone else...either try to extract meaning or rage against it.

But---again---it does not work that way now...and may never work that way.

The "phenomenon" in and of itself, has little or no innate meaning.

Contrary to what nearly *everyone* believes...."it" has neither a helpul nor insideous plan.

Like Vallee notes...it reflects back what we project onto it.

People who want demons get demons....nuts and bolts ufos get that...people wanting orbs get that....and the people yearning for anal probing seem to get that.

Why our race craves these things and not butterflies, puppies and flying unicorns i don't know...sad really.

Now in fairness it may not be 100% reflective.

But id say that humanity is more like a cluster of "space brain" brain cells that are mostly asleep and coming out of a deep coma....surrounded by trillions of other "space brain, brain cells".

Just a metaphor....

But our personal and collective unconscious yearnings are. *not* particularly helpful.

Clinton...Trump...heaven...hell...anal probes..
Gosh we have rancid imaginations.

Kev

I find it slightly amusing and informative that those who rail against the idea of a "control system" seem to backtrack, eventually, and agree and coalesce with themselves, even as they argue against it. This, I think, is simply the terms of the "human condition." We abolutely abhor the idea that anyone is in control of us, can't admit it, rail against it, and I think I know why: All the things we find we may have done we would surely like to blame on someone else, controlling us. But what we've done right, we don't ever wish to attritube to elsewhere. While if we attribute one thing or another, it means, intrinsically, and logically, we probably have to acquiesce that the other is possible.

But, just blatantly, NO ONE wants to admit anyone or anything else could rise above and concquer their own conscious actions...... It's a true paradox: in one way, you would be forgiven your sins. In another, you would be robbed of your achievements, integrity and the very nature of what makes being human a great thing. And we all whom identify with being human, would wish that being human and having humanity is a GOOD thing.....

Many here would say that isn't so. I've read it for years, all those who rail against human instincts and humanity. This argument goes all the way back to the Bible, and God supposedly saying that man could imagine nothing in a human man's heart but evil, without Him, for guidance....

but that's a whole other thread.....
tetra

a reply to: tetra50

Nicely said.

Either we have no free will

--or--

We are the source of "evil" ourselves.

Nobody wants to admit to either.

But from my perspective...neither of those views are helpful.

We are a very young race....and the very young have a lot to learn.

Including that no person is an island.

Everything affects everything..for the most part.

Kev

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: tetra50

Nicely said.

Either we have no free will

--or--

We are the source of "evil" ourselves.

Nobody wants to admit to either.

But from my perspective...neither of those views are helpful.

We are a very young race....and the very young have a lot to learn.

Including that no person is an island.

Everything affects everything..for the most part.

Kev

yeah, see that's in my humble opinion, exactly it: we don't want to admit one thing, but then there's that.....and it's a heavy one, in particular. Who wants to think that when you smoke a cigarette, it affects someone else, negatively......

This is hard and heady stuff, at the same time.

Regardless, good to see you, Kev.
tetra

a reply to: tetra50

Thanks you too...

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear
sounds very Jungian.

I know I may sound like someone that likes things defined "objectively". Well, I do. This is what I call "having a grip". Meaning we literally hold on for dear life to those things that are "real" because when you lose that grip, its scary as hell. Now I like my grip on things. It makes having a family and holding a job much easier. On this particular forum, I like to have a pretty good grip...so if I am understanding you correctly, I should lose this grip, which I am not opposed to.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

This, I think, to be the salient part of what was said:

We are the source of "evil" ourselves.

Nobody wants to admit to either.

But from my perspective...neither of those views are helpful.

No, neither view is helpful, in the least.
What is, having agreed upon those extremes, really?
How do you live with yourself, if your friend is murdered, for instance. This is my current quandary.
Surely I had some responsibility. And surely, there was much I couldn't control: his murderer, the society in which he grew up and lived in, which begged the question of where and what he could do to support his children in some other fashion, that what he did, exposed us all to the possibility of murder.....and whose fault was that?

Everyday when I talk to people, they always say, "Don't take it so personally." But if you are a truly living, breathing, thinking human being, there really is no other way to take it.

My friend is dead. I wanted another life for him. He searched for that, daily, knowing the possibilities. It HAS to be somewhat my responsibility, for I knew that about him, and even how his killer struggled as well......what does that make me?

Do any one of us want to admit our evil in this world? No.
Will I argue endlessly to escape that possible label: Perhaps. will I consider that my input here in reality helped make this reality so: yes. I'm doing that now. You are witness to such. Is it painful? Undeniably, horribly so.

In trying to kill my own pain in life, I had an impact on both these mens' lives, and their children, and me, are paying fo r it now. I would it was any other way.

This respresents a chain of events beyond my foreseeing or control. I do not accept that makes my human condition of escaping pain an evil, in and of itself. I would have done really anything to have made sure it didn't end like this. I am so very sorry.

Sry, as I'm sure many don't understand what I'm speaking of. A friend of mine got killed in my neighborhood a week ago, by someone else I knew......I am struggling with that. My friend that was killed, was a father of four, and grandfather of three. He was a good man. No matter what he did for a living, he struggled with the facts of life and providing for his people. I understand this on an intrinsic level, and struggle with his death, obviously, from what I've written here. But this is the real world and what happens in it everyday. How are we to stop/change it if we don't truly examine our place in what happens, and whom we truly are within that regard?
tetra

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Not at all.

Keep that grip tight!

We are discussing hypothetical stuff.

Don't let that get in the way of "life", as fleeting,
Difficult, and semi-illusory as it is.

Kev

a reply to: tetra50

Life has no inherent meaning and is not "fair".

Every living thing, from an ant to a godling does whatever they do for their own happiness.

While being caught up in layer upon layer of processes they will likely never understand or control.

Either you make the best of it, or you torture yourself with woulda coulda shoulda.

Then, ant or godling alike, you probably die.

Everything most likely repeats.

Try your best.

People think that they cant "live like this"...but everyone does...no matter how many or how few religious and spiritual delusions (denial) they wrap around themselves.

Kev

originally posted by: tetra50
I find it slightly amusing and informative that those who rail against the idea of a "control system" seem to backtrack, eventually, and agree and coalesce with themselves, even as they argue against it. This, I think, is simply the terms of the "human condition." We abolutely abhor the idea that anyone is in control of us, can't admit it, rail against it, and I think I know why: All the things we find we may have done we would surely like to blame on someone else, controlling us. But what we've done right, we don't ever wish to attritube to elsewhere. While if we attribute one thing or another, it means, intrinsically, and logically, we probably have to acquiesce that the other is possible.

But, just blatantly, NO ONE wants to admit anyone or anything else could rise above and concquer their own conscious actions...... It's a true paradox: in one way, you would be forgiven your sins. In another, you would be robbed of your achievements, integrity and the very nature of what makes being human a great thing. And we all whom identify with being human, would wish that being human and having humanity is a GOOD thing.....

Many here would say that isn't so. I've read it for years, all those who rail against human instincts and humanity. This argument goes all the way back to the Bible, and God supposedly saying that man could imagine nothing in a human man's heart but evil, without Him, for guidance....

but that's a whole other thread.....
tetra

The bible texts tell us that man cannot govern himself and must have a control system from heaven (God). Genesis 1:26, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness...". There is always the unspecified plurality of the gods, gate keepers, watchers, the ancient ones, etc, who with impunity circumvent the will and potential of humanity. Vallée's correlating conception of the super supreme, cosmic intelligentsia control system is but another variation of the religious, prehistoric paganism brought forth into the scientific era, evolving from worship of the Sun as a god, to the personal god, to ETs and inter-dimensional, nondescript entities - diverting the masses from their prime directive. In reality man is intellectually dishonest, his internal psycho-spiritual ethos compromised, a consequence of encapsulating himself within a stagnant cosmic consciousness dependent upon outer control systems in whatever form is applicable to the time period.

Humans are in a sense the unwitting victims of an internally manufactured thought culture which plays like a looped recording, in order to console humanity's unnecessary suffering and excuse man's choice to wallow in ignorance, selfishness and immaturity. Its a replicating mind virus perpetuated by man himself, not by a nefarious cosmic collective. Vallée is simply another prophet who allows us to limit our understanding and interaction in a greater cosmic environment. The universe is allot more interesting than what these frauds are preaching and my hope is that you'll start thinking outside the old construct of perceptions.

a reply to: Gianfar

Thank you, Gianfar, that first, you thought enough of me to hope that for me.

But I have to say, that you are absolutely correct: whether we invest our intellect, belief and spirituality in the old texts of the Bible, or other such texts, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or Jewish oriented, it does all seem to spell to me what you've described: a control system defined by certain parameters (rules), whether they be directed by Yeshivah, God or Allah.

This, it seems to me, is the most contributive factor in light of thinking we are constantly at odds with some kind of "control system," all other examples included, no matter what the explanation for them are, whether it be alien, governmental or religious, in nature and by definition. You are absolutely correct in that regard, to my way of thinking.

However, I think beyond all those boxes currently.. . They are all the same "box," with a different decoration on the outside, if you will, but nonethelss, a box, wherein we can fit our lives, and explain the circumstances of our lives, much like the ancient peoples explained thunder, lightening and rain destroying their most previous plantings of crops, looking for an explanation of why they were not deserving enough, or more deserving that they would survive yet another year without starvation.

And yes, Vallee perhaps just gave us another paradigm investment to explain all that away: what you describe as... " humanity's unnecessary suffering and excuse man's choice to wallow in ignorance, selfishness and immaturity."

We all seek a reason. Surely that isn't immaturity, but wanting to think that there is some sense to what we suffer, regardless and in spite of our energy or laziness. In other words, I choose to see it that no matter how we have been striving for the best of possible futures, we need a reason for the attendant failure, when it happens.....

My regard for what you say would be that how you see man's struggle so uncomplimentary, as though we've suffered because of our lack of trying.....

I don't believe that, and I think this is the pivotal difference in what you and I believe, and represent in our belief systems. I've read, seen anthropologically and experienced life struggling to deal with every possible failure, and tremendous energies put forth to stave all that off, as if we worked hard enough, and were deserving enough, the famine, the flood, the cataclysm would not come and destroy our children's chances......and still, despite whatever was done, all the hard work, all the prayers and attention to that future, still ended in cataclysm.....

I find your judgements harsh, even as you find mine lacking, in their investments in our best efforts being met with folly being part and parcel of said "control system." The world is not so simple, I think. And some of all suggested reasons, whether it be government, aliens, control systems we don't know the originator of, or otherwise, I always find it isn't a matter of any one thing, but many, all at the same time.

Take care.
tetra

Man is the recipient and the source of evil.


Long ago according to the mythology of spiritual history he somehow corrupted his soul machine or inner faculties of perception.

That's the literal source of his suffering


It’s that simple.

All of our existence is to correct that the best we can with what we have.

a reply to: tetra50

I'm grateful for your opinion and willingness to interact, even if our views are widely divergent. From my perspective, I have discovered a kind of understanding related to the human psyche and human potentiality. I understand my views on this topic as a matter of practical application rather than a set of emotions based in popular social conscience, which I attempted to define as being a closed circuit of superimposed rules, as you most plainly described. I do admire people who can write and express the simple and plain truths without the hyperbole.

Simply put, I think it is as you said, "harsh" to realize some of the things about my human origins and faults, which have been painful, but in effect has produced a great blessing in developing a personal, encompassing ethos in the larger context of my environment. It has developed into a conscious connection with some unusual experiences and learning in who I am and what we are.

I must admit that my opinions are shaped by personal experiences, which sadly are not demonstrable and thus can never come to light through sharing.

Nevertheless, here's a small exercise in concept (at least) which I would like to put out here. It is related to the Vallée subject matter in terms of what he describes as an intelligent based control system, but I will let you make that inference yourself. In any case, I think Vallée's assertion that we are interacting with an unidentified intelligence is correct. But I disagree that it is trying to control us.

There are physicists who have (and are currently) investigating how thought interacts with particles and photons on a quantum level. In the future technology will be developed to work with thought waves to amplify or enhance these effects on matter and the quantum fabric of space-time.

Eventually scientists will understand how to use certain types of matter to open audio visual portals through the space-time continuum, allowing participants here on earth to remotely observe people living on other planets in real time. The potential of such a technology goes far beyond what I am describing here as well. Remotely viewing and interacting with extraterrestrial civilizations in various stages of evolution would allow scientists to develop a new knowledge base of how life develops in other environments. Experiments would be developed to test individuals' interpretations of reality and the effects of psychological stresses created through various stimuli on the subjects.

If there were extraterrestrials already using this technique, they could study human psychology and our physical evolution throughout its history and understand us in ways that we may not. This is of relative interest in our interpretation of humanity and what it means in a larger community consciousness. It would also be of relative interest to our reality in our current state of evolution. Ultimately, such a study would become a science related to purposeful or intentional art of evolution through various enhancements adopted from or by extraterrestrials. This may in fact already exist as a form of trade or currency of high value in the galactic community at large.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Not at all.

Keep that grip tight!

We are discussing hypothetical stuff.

Don't let that get in the way of "life", as fleeting,
Difficult, and semi-illusory as it is.

Kev

Well maybe I'm projecting because I think we need to let go once in a while.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Yup.

I certainly let go too. (carefully).

What do you think about that quote I shared earlier, from "The Magus"?

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Nearly everyone drawn to the "Vallee core observations" tries to extract "truth" and "purpose" and "meaning" from them.

Only it doesn't work that way in this case.

All my friends and everyone else...either try to extract meaning or rage against it.

But---again---it does not work that way now...and may never work that way.

The "phenomenon" in and of itself, has little or no innate meaning.

Contrary to what nearly *everyone* believes...."it" has neither a helpul nor insideous plan.

Like Vallee notes...it reflects back what we project onto it.

People who want demons get demons....nuts and bolts ufos get that...people wanting orbs get that....and the people yearning for anal probing seem to get that.

Why our race craves these things and not butterflies, puppies and flying unicorns i don't know...sad really.

Now in fairness it may not be 100% reflective.

But id say that humanity is more like a cluster of "space brain" brain cells that are mostly asleep and coming out of a deep coma....surrounded by trillions of other "space brain, brain cells".

Just a metaphor....

But our personal and collective unconscious yearnings are. *not* particularly helpful.

Clinton...Trump...heaven...hell...anal probes..
Gosh we have rancid imaginations.

Kev

And that's the whole f*cking point! Where Vallée and all his followers got it entirely wrong. The phenomenon does have meaning it is affecting people experiencing it a lot. What for surely is another matter of debate, but

Demons, ghosts, spirits, abductions etc are not the same as UFOs.
Why? Well for one the area of influence is different. The means are different. The volume of interaction is different.
I would argue the only reason "abductions" happen (which is silly to even call it that because the experiencer isn't physically taken anywhere,) is to throw dust in the researchers eyes.

We here on Earth got our own "sub" or "parallel" beings or tulpas, but none of them could shut down minuteman, create radiation as it was found in Rendlesham forest, or anything like that.
We have been greatly interested in telekinesis etc for at least two hundred years probably much much longer = no result = 0.
If suddenly someone would tell me they can create a tulpa emitting vast amounts of radiation, creating force fields to reflect bullets and missiles, I would say "Awesome, problem solved!"
But that never will happen. Bend a spoon and you're a hero. That's the problem.

double post




And I know Jim Oberg will show up if I say that, but:
Look at the sts-48 footage. Why would a tulpa be up there?
The Vietnam helicopters might be explanable with the population wanting to scare the US soldiers away, but

And now I lean far out the window

What if our "human agents acting on the sub-material realm" or god'n stuff like that, beings depending on being alive in our imagination, hijack the UFO phenomenon to survive?