Revisiting Jaques Vallée - Beyond the Control Loop

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: Jake27

originally posted by: billydebunker
If flying saucers were not physical craft, they couldn't show up in photographs.

As someone else mentioned, holograms aren't physical and yet they'd show up just fine in a photo. You need to open your mind a little, you know? You're very closed minded and unnecessarily aggressive.
There could be non physical entities, from another dimension, or a parallel universe, or even this universe except made from dark matter. They may have the ability to appear solid, or even be able to manipulate reality and actually become solid.

SHOW ME a photo of a hologram flying saucer, please. Any old hologram flying saucer will do, thanks.
You're talking out of another part of your anatomy.

Thank you for proving my point. You're most useful when you don't intend to be.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: billydebunker

Unless the stealth bomber is not a physical object? Lol.

The stealth bomber does show up on radar. Especially if it is within visual range.

No aircraft is entirely invisible to radar. The goal is to make detection and/or radar lock as hard as possible. Therefore, the detection range is small enough that there is not enough reaction time to deploy countermeasures that are effective.

www.f-117a.com...

Except the stealth bomber is not "unidentified" And the subject seems to be about unidentified ones here. But you'll make it about something else as usual.

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

Except the stealth bomber is not "unidentified" And the subject seems to be about unidentified ones here.

You may want to review who brought stealth bombers up and in what context.

a reply to: billydebunker

Thank you for proving my point. You're most useful when you don't intend to be.

What was your point? And what did you think my intention was exactly?

a reply to: NoCorruptionAllowed

Except the stealth bomber is not "unidentified" And the subject seems to be about unidentified ones here.

The whole point of the stealth bomber is for it to be unidentified.

Attention all posters!

This thread will get back on topic. That means debate the subject. Other posters are not the subject.

Continued personal attacks will result in posting bans.

Do not reply to this message.

TheRedneck
ATS Forum Moderator

The previously banned member with the attitude problem has been banned again and several childish posts by said childish vainglorious poster have been removed.

Please carry on with the discussion sans the ridiculous interruptions...

Thanks.

originally posted by: Springer
The previously banned member with the attitude problem has been banned again and several childish posts by said childish vainglorious poster have been removed.

Please carry on with the discussion sans the ridiculous interruptions...

Thanks.

Thank you for the good news. Peace will reign again!

Thank god!

That was a waste of 3 or 4 pages. Get all excited for a new doc joc thread and then it gets spammed into oblivion.


Back to lurking...

a reply to: klassless

Thank you for the good news.

Said the pot to the kettle. Sort of.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: klassless

Thank you for the good news.

Said the pot to the kettle. Sort of.

That "Sort of." saved your butt!

originally posted by: billydebunker
a reply to: Gianfar

Vallée interprets this high strangeness case as an intelligently manufactured illusion, simply because he sees it as purely irrational that real ETs would do such a thing. Vallée's fundamental flaw of assuming that non-human beings would behave as we do is quite astonishing and should be obvious to any intellectual thinker capable of double checking his own assumptions.

Great post, So well written and informative. Vallee fails as a scientist and a Ufologist. Why waste time talking about him, unless as a way to deliberately avoid meaningful discussion of the very real and physical alien abduction crisis.

So you have an analytical mind. Yes I criticized Vallée (though he was a successful scientist) for being sloppy, unscientific in his approach because its a fact based on his data. Anyone who considers himself a Vallée proponent is likewise, unscientific. I stated that there are numerous interpretations, a case in point made in the post, and that the generalities of thought tend to interpret along the line of individual bias, scientists no exception. It also seems you've espoused an assumption of an opinion because you calculate yourself as intelligent in any discussion based upon your own preconceptions. Are you going to be one of those folks (like the failed scientist,as 'you' called him) whose opinions are predicated on 'cherry picked' statements (or data)? I made my point that there are several scenarios playing out here, not the least of which merely pertain to the EDH or ETH. Kep in mind that an interesting discussion doesn't evolve by giving the participants a choice between this or that or critiquing opinions that diverge from yours. People who gridlock the discussion with rules that limited them to choosing a particular concept (ie. EDH vs. ETH) are the only ones guilty of avoiding a meaningful discourse.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Gianfar

Then who are these blue guys? And why are they showing up during a psychic session?

Based on an investigation by psychics who channel ghosts? Insignificant.

a reply to: Peeple

Well now that we are back on track.. I'd be happy to submit some more comments that have been peculating since Dr. Vallee and I had our marathon discussion.

Just like Jacques discussed his personal sightings and favorite cases, I discussed in quite some detail the close encounter I had with the BTUFO.

I have discussed it in some detail in various posts.. but the most significant portions are generally dog-piled with dissent (which is fine.. dissent can be good).. but the salient points seem to get covered over and don't "gain wings" in other/ongoing discussions. (seems to be what happens with most UFO discussions).

Well I'm not going to go over all the salient points of that encounter, as that would be OT, but the "rivets" certainly are on-topic.

When I first noticed the Black Triangle UFO, one of the first things I noticed was the rivets. Rivets. How strange. The "craft" was coming from the East, barely visible on the horizon, yet I could see rivets. The "craft" followed it's flight path to the West Horizon, without making a sound, while shape-changing into 3 different forms.. and doing other bizarre things, including (apparently) responding to my thoughts (it dipped down so I could see the top, to ensure I could see there were no external engine or wing parts on top, bottom or any of the 3 sides).. but I could see those ridiculous rivets all the way until it disappeared on the West Horizon, as if it was right in my face under a magnifying glass.

Now that doesn't work with the laws of physics in terms of distance/perspective. Well it would in only one case.

It only works if the "craft" was a complete schizoid break with reality, or had been partially or fully "projected into my mind".

I have other indications to support this hypothesis (the projection part.. no indication of schizoid breaks that I am aware of).

I did discuss this in great detail with Dr. Vallee.

It would seem, that whether or not there actually is a physical component some where.. whether or not these UAP are from some other dimension, or are composed of plasma or are holographic or whatever.. I can say with fairly good confidence,
that they SEEM to use human beings, (the human mind---just talking organically here.. no need for mysticism) as the

"last part of the circuit" --- whether just perceptual or quantum who knows what.

So that really explains nearly everything... why there area billion different appearances and characteristics when it comes to "UFOs".

If the last part of the "circuit" is the human mind.. then of course it will always be colored differently nearly every time....just like it is.. no wonder it can break all the laws of physics and never leave evidence (unless it wants to).

Yes, I am speaking as if it's alive.. as even if "IT" isn't.. by the time it's run through the human mind, "IT" does seemingly or does become an "IT" (as in a living thing).

Well there you go.

WE are in fact (apparently) a BIG PART of the "control loop", as we are the final part of the "circuit".

And since Humans are insane apes, with toxic imaginations, it's no wonder that things are the way that they are
in the field of UFOlogy and related "paranormal" and "religious" fields..

as I'd say that we are part of the "final circuit" for all of those areas.

Kev

a reply to: Peeple

(Mouth drooling) ok..

Yea I get the fact that throwing myths in there doesn't help with a scientific explanation an all...But science hasn't had any such luck with under standing other then possibly doing it dirty work for it.

These ufo probably show up or are interested social events, technological points of.progression or development, or show up when it comes to the small things.

For all we know the A.I is purposely scaring the nation's and their militaries due to militaries constant search for improved technology and weaponry. And at the same time scaring them enough so they could get along an hold hands, kiss an make up, have plenty of babies...rinse an repeat and not grt the A.I killed, or be killed by it like the terminator.

You know not cast judgment upon the world like some heathen savage God that waiting and working on the kingdom that ll come... (sooner then later hopefully) or Hell for a couple thousand year till it gets new ideas.

O yea one more thing...there a Chinese thunder god that dissappears when a couple having intercourse. I'd love to.put that scene from hot tub time machine 1 to give an idea.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

I always have to chew a bit on what you are saying. But I believe I agree.

The thing were it feels your perception gets "hijacked" you see things you just can't see. Problem: it convinces everybody you tell that, you're schizophrenic. Does that mean the thing you "interacted" with wasn't there in the first place? No I'm pretty sure it was and I could find pictures proving that.
The interaction took place. I am pretty sure.
But I saw details, which I just couldn't see, if you believe in the laws of physics. Angles and zooms and such. But my interaction object was there. Yours might have been too. A real flying saucer. UFO. Black Triangle. The explanation it is both, physical and psychological makes the most sense. It is physically there, but playing with your brain as easy as ... I don't know a good example, you with your dogs, if they were virtual pets.

a reply to: Peeple

Yup. Jacques and I discussed that aspect in detail.

He had many case studies, where there was *definitely* a physical object there (or at least an "energy effect" which affected the physical world), but two people, standing next to each other, see radically different things.

In one case even, one person thought they were abducted while standing there next to the other person (they weren't abducted, not physically at least).

These type of UAP's (to distinguish them from mistaken identification like balloons, planets, or military aircraft)
are equal parts physical-seeming and brain-controlling.

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Now we are finally back on track. I think you've basically summed it up Kev.

Most UFOs are a misidentification of terrestrial and natural objects (aircraft, drones, lanterns, meteors etc.). Some are also hoaxes.

Then we have the genuine unknowns. These UFOs can create one, or more, of physical, psychological and even psychedelic affects on the environment and ourselves.

This doesn't necessarily rule out the ETH or EDH to me. Not yet anyway. I don't think we understand anything about this phenomenon. In fact it could be both of those things and more or neither of them and something else entirely.

Simples!

a reply to: mirageman

That does sum it up.

Kev

A sigh of relief for sure. The gang's all here. Good to see you Kelly. LOL
Just mentioning Jacques Vallee seems to bring us all out in full force. Where's lost girl, the only one missing, thus far.....and perhaps, The Gut.
Hope all are well.
regards,
tetra