Dutch Investigators Give Results of MH17 Probe to Families

a reply to: Velatropa24

The rankings are determined by Reporters Without Borders. A group that is comprised of reporters from all over the world. If you think they're in the pocket of the US explain why they consistently rank the US in the mid-40s.

a reply to: Discotech

No. Strelkov and his fellow holiday-makers started the war deliberately when the Ukrainians sent in the army to restore law and order after criminal gangs took over town halls and started murdering any civilians who stood up to them.

That is how it began. Whether Russia subsequently provided any official aid or not is a moot point.

Sadly, the murderers have ling fled (or themseles been killed) and Strelkov has disappeared ....


We also have to ask why Russia presented fake evidence to suggest a SU-25 shot down MH17 when their newly rediscovered after over 2 years radar data conclusively proves no such aircraft was in the region at the time.

Actually, I lie. Strelkov hasnt disappeared ....

www.theguardian.com...

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Love the source...location Moscow.

Nah they aren't biased one bit with their reporting.

Strelkovs earlier admission .....

themoscowtimes.com...

(I know Moscow Times is a "western" media outlet, but it reports what he said to a Russian newspaper)

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: the2ofusr1

Love the source...location Moscow.

Nah they aren't biased one bit with their reporting.

If the location was washington, the source would be 100% legit.

There are 2 kinds of people out there 1) people that repeat what they hear (however selective in what resonates with them). 2) people that think for themselves.

originally posted by: Velatropa24

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: the2ofusr1

Love the source...location Moscow.

Nah they aren't biased one bit with their reporting.

If the location was washington, the source would be 100% legit.

There are 2 kinds of people out there 1) people that repeat what they hear (however selective in what resonates with them). 2) people that think for themselves.

Is that why you are blathering on about Russian Innocence.. Most of the fabricated Russian evidence for MH17 has been revealed as a lie.
Start from the beginning and look your eyes may be able to see without the state mist blocking your vision..

originally posted by: skywatcher44

originally posted by: Velatropa24

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: the2ofusr1

Love the source...location Moscow.

Nah they aren't biased one bit with their reporting.

If the location was washington, the source would be 100% legit.

There are 2 kinds of people out there 1) people that repeat what they hear (however selective in what resonates with them). 2) people that think for themselves.

Is that why you are blathering on about Russian Innocence.. Most of the fabricated Russian evidence for MH17 has been revealed as a lie.
Start from the beginning and look your eyes may be able to see without the state mist blocking your vision..

I disagree with you. I have already wrote about the questionable investigation on page 1. I should not have to repeat myself, however, for certain special people i will make it clear yet again...

An investigation which uses social media as their main source of "irrifutable facts", information that could have been made by anyone, an investigation which gathers some facts that fit the end story while ignoring other important questions and facts is a dirty, political, ordered investigation where the result is known from the beginning and the facts are gathered to fit the picture. It should be the other way around - when a picture is made of independent, non biased facts without a political agenda.

A wise person will look at the world arena, the trends happening for the last few years and the strategic moves which have been made on all sides, then determine who benefits the most from the situation. That is where I am coming from.

Once again, i am the judge of the conclusions i come to, and so far - the duch investigators have not proven beyond reasonable doubt that Russia is responsible for the attack. They have claimed a lot of things, but have shown little proof, and even less legitimate proof.

To be honest, i am very surprised how you people swallow it without question.

The obvious answer that comes to mind - it is because you have been conditioned to be against Russia and anything Russia does, therefore subconsciously wish for Russia to be guilty of everything, because in your view - what is bad for Russia is good for the Western world.

You as people have forgotten that if one cell harms another, harm is done to the whole body, including the cell that caused harm because its a part of the whole.

This is where the wholezombification, conditioning and brainwashing implications by your best in the world free media arise.

a reply to: Velatropa24

Maybe it's easy to be suspicious of Russia when this entire investigation they have done nothing but muddy the waters. Since day one they have been throwing out ridiculous theories backed up by equally ridiculous evidence. Even this week they made claims that their evidence clearly doesn't back up. Almaz-Antey knows that radar wouldn't be able to detect a SAM. Russian MOD knows that radar wouldn't be able to detect a SAM. So why did they try to use it as a way to exonerate the separatists? Every action Russia has taken this entire investigation had clearly shown they know who was responsible and that they were trying to protect them. Can you deny that?

a reply to: Velatropa24

There was nothing to swallow. From the beginning it was apparent where the shootdown came from. Only pro russians have been intentionally ignoring facts. If we go back through all the topics on MH17 on this site from day one you will see pro russians parroting Moscows "version" of events. When its debunked they parrot the next lie Russia puts out. When they are shown the image of an aircraft shooting down mh17 was a fabricated lie they continue to reference it as fact.

Even Russian "experts" have been caught lying, from the military spokesperson who claimed it was shot down by a plane that couldnt reach the height involved, to reluctantly admitting it was a BUK only to try and argue Russia didnt use the one that brought the plane down.

The latest lie is the radar data they "just found".

and you have the audacity to say you are surprised people "swallow it without question"?

look in a mirror when you say that as that is your audience for the comment.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Velatropa24

Maybe it's easy to be suspicious of Russia when this entire investigation they have done nothing but muddy the waters. Since day one they have been throwing out ridiculous theories backed up by equally ridiculous evidence. Even this week they made claims that their evidence clearly doesn't back up. Almaz-Antey knows that radar wouldn't be able to detect a SAM. Russian MOD knows that radar wouldn't be able to detect a SAM. So why did they try to use it as a way to exonerate the separatists? Every action Russia has taken this entire investigation had clearly shown they know who was responsible and that they were trying to protect them. Can you deny that?

I can not confirm or deny the fact about the radar detecting an SAM because i lack knowledge in that field, and when I don't know something, i do not form opinions and start claiming things out of thin air like a lot of people here.

What I can tell you is that contrary to your opinion, some important research and info did come out of Almaz Antei and was subsequently ignored, for example the experiment where they exploded a buk missile in front of a plane cockpit and accessed the debris/damage, or information about the shape of the debris holes on mh370 corresponding to a long discontinued version of buk missile still used in Ukraine.

I can tell you that a lot of information went unreported - Ukraine's total silence on the issue, the deletion of logs from Ukraine ATC, ATC controllers going missing, US refusing to releace satellite images etc... thats clear ignorance of evidence which should raise questions, but so far has not.

That is why I do not blindly believe this investigation.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Velatropa24

There was nothing to swallow. From the beginning it was apparent where the shootdown came from. Only pro russians have been intentionally ignoring facts. If we go back through all the topics on MH17 on this site from day one you will see pro russians parroting Moscows "version" of events. When its debunked they parrot the next lie Russia puts out. When they are shown the image of an aircraft shooting down mh17 was a fabricated lie they continue to reference it as fact.

Even Russian "experts" have been caught lying, from the military spokesperson who claimed it was shot down by a plane that couldnt reach the height involved, to reluctantly admitting it was a BUK only to try and argue Russia didnt use the one that brought the plane down.

The latest lie is the radar data they "just found".

and you have the audacity to say you are surprised people "swallow it without question"?

look in a mirror when you say that as that is your audience for the comment.

I understand your opinion - you couldn't make it more clear then you have.

You love america and hate Russia. Infact you hate Russia more then you love america. That is what makes your world go around and make sense - hating Russia.

I get it.

But pure Russia hate does not get you very far. Like you claim Russians parrot Russian lies, you parrot American lies. How are you different? You are not.

I get that you hate Russia.

Everything else you write is getting old and has little value.

Xcathdra- continuing from my previous post, like you I offer you to look at previous posts and topics that you have participated in - it's not hard to see the legitimacy of what I have said in the previous post.

In context with the above - I or any other reasonable person find it extremely hard to take anything you say seriously, because by reasonable i presume pro truth, and if you are heavily biased to begin with, truth is something that is mutually exclusive with picking sides and black and white thinking.

And as far as truth goes, I am afraid that it is not on your side in this topic.

a reply to: Velatropa24

I can not confirm or deny the fact about the radar detecting an SAM because i lack knowledge in that field, and when I don't know something, i do not form opinions and start claiming things out of thin air like a lot of people here.

There's actually not a lot that needs to be understood to realize the radar story is bull. There are two types of radar. Primary and secondary. Primary is what we generally think of in regards to radar. This is pretty much only used by the military. Civilian radars, including the one cited by the Russian MOD, are secondary radars. They require an aircraft to be fitted with an RF transmitter in order for it to be picked up on radar. Considering that one doesn't want a missile to be detected it isn't fitted with one of these transmitters.

What I can tell you is that contrary to your opinion, some important research and info did come out of Almaz Antei and was subsequently ignored, for example the experiment where they exploded a buk missile in front of a plane cockpit and accessed the debris/damage, or information about the shape of the debris holes on mh370 corresponding to a long discontinued version of buk missile still used in Ukraine.

Considering that Almaz-Antey is complicit in this current radar misinformation I would say they're not exactly the most trustworthy source. That said the missile that Russia supposedly no longer possesses was used in Russia's 2015 Victory Day parade. Even then we already know that the separatists had seized arms from Ukrainian military bases. Who's to say they didn't seize some SAMs?

I can tell you that a lot of information went unreported - Ukraine's total silence on the issue, the deletion of logs from Ukraine ATC, ATC controllers going missing, US refusing to releace satellite images etc... thats clear ignorance of evidence which should raise questions, but so far has not.

This is the first I've heard of loss being deleted. In fact a transcript of MH17's final moments had been published. Are you sure you're not talking about the ATC data being seized by Ukrainian authorities? Like one would expect in any criminal investigation. As for the missing ATC controllers I can only guess you're referencing Carlos. The Spanish national who somehow got a job in Ukrainian ATC even though you have to be a Ukrainian citizen to hold such a job. The same Carlos that has a history of pushing conspiracy theories.

Like I said, the Russians and their supporters have done nothing but try to muddy the waters.

a reply to: Velatropa24

Actually you don't get it and your uninformed comments about what I like and dont like further proves my point about parroting Russian lies. Russia has made it a habit of labeling anyone who doesn't agree with russian actions / criticizes Russia as Russo-phobic. I dont hate Russia nor do I hate Russians. I have a very strong dislike of Putin and his government and I feel sorry for the Russian people who seem to get leaders who continue to treat them like crap for their own personal gains.

Once again thank you for proving my point about parroting Russian propaganda while at the same time that you are incapable of independent thought.

Listening to the same russian lies and apologists gets old.

a reply to: Velatropa24

Again Russian talking points. You cant refute facts so you go for personal attacks and try to argue the person making them has some anti russian agenda, just as Putlers government does.

Ironic.

When will you and others post valid info on the topic and stop diverting / deflecting? We get eno0ugh of that from Putler and really dont need people doing it in these threads.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Velatropa24

I can not confirm or deny the fact about the radar detecting an SAM because i lack knowledge in that field, and when I don't know something, i do not form opinions and start claiming things out of thin air like a lot of people here.

There's actually not a lot that needs to be understood to realize the radar story is bull. There are two types of radar. Primary and secondary. Primary is what we generally think of in regards to radar. This is pretty much only used by the military. Civilian radars, including the one cited by the Russian MOD, are secondary radars. They require an aircraft to be fitted with an RF transmitter in order for it to be picked up on radar. Considering that one doesn't want a missile to be detected it isn't fitted with one of these transmitters.

What I can tell you is that contrary to your opinion, some important research and info did come out of Almaz Antei and was subsequently ignored, for example the experiment where they exploded a buk missile in front of a plane cockpit and accessed the debris/damage, or information about the shape of the debris holes on mh370 corresponding to a long discontinued version of buk missile still used in Ukraine.

Considering that Almaz-Antey is complicit in this current radar misinformation I would say they're not exactly the most trustworthy source. That said the missile that Russia supposedly no longer possesses was used in Russia's 2015 Victory Day parade. Even then we already know that the separatists had seized arms from Ukrainian military bases. Who's to say they didn't seize some SAMs?

I can tell you that a lot of information went unreported - Ukraine's total silence on the issue, the deletion of logs from Ukraine ATC, ATC controllers going missing, US refusing to releace satellite images etc... thats clear ignorance of evidence which should raise questions, but so far has not.

This is the first I've heard of loss being deleted. In fact a transcript of MH17's final moments had been published. Are you sure you're not talking about the ATC data being seized by Ukrainian authorities? Like one would expect in any criminal investigation. As for the missing ATC controllers I can only guess you're referencing Carlos. The Spanish national who somehow got a job in Ukrainian ATC even though you have to be a Ukrainian citizen to hold such a job. The same Carlos that has a history of pushing conspiracy theories.

Like I said, the Russians and their supporters have done nothing but try to muddy the waters.

You seem to be confused here, BUK misseles and systems are still used by Russia. However - there are different mods and versions of the missile that have come and gone with years of modernization. From the outside they all look the same. However inside they are very different. Whats in question here is the element which strikes the target after the explosion happens - shrapnel which does the actual damage. The old discontinued missiles contained the shrapnel elements in the shape of a "butterfly" - consistent with the holes in the fuselage. The newer missiles used by Russia today, contain shrapnel elements of a different shape.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Velatropa24

Again Russian talking points. You cant refute facts so you go for personal attacks and try to argue the person making them has some anti russian agenda, just as Putlers government does.

Ironic.

When will you and others post valid info on the topic and stop diverting / deflecting? We get eno0ugh of that from Putler and really dont need people doing it in these threads.

What i said about you is personal but it is very directly related to what you post, therefore legitimate. In any given situation you will find 100 facts/quotes/articles that are anti russian and ignore 100 of the ones that are pro. Consideration will be given to your biased side rather then what is true 100% of the time. Therefore I stand by my point. In topics that are related to Russia, one can not take you seriously because truth is always second place to bias.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Velatropa24

Actually you don't get it and your uninformed comments about what I like and dont like further proves my point about parroting Russian lies. Russia has made it a habit of labeling anyone who doesn't agree with russian actions / criticizes Russia as Russo-phobic. I dont hate Russia nor do I hate Russians. I have a very strong dislike of Putin and his government and I feel sorry for the Russian people who seem to get leaders who continue to treat them like crap for their own personal gains.

Once again thank you for proving my point about parroting Russian propaganda while at the same time that you are incapable of independent thought.

Listening to the same russian lies and apologists gets old.

You ever heard the saying - you can't help someone who doesn't want your help? See I have opinions about american politics, but for the most part I respect the choice of American people and don't care how they chose to live. Why are you so concearned with who Russians choose and how they live? Ever consider respecting their choice and minding your own business?

Would you like it if your neighbour came to your house and told you to get rid of your car and buy yourself the one he likes?

I guess at least you as a citizen reflect the line that your government takes on the international stage...

As far as using people for personal gains, I can tell you a very long story about how american corporations, businesses, advisors and politicians raped Russia in the 90's.

originally posted by: [post=21305886]

You love america and hate Russia. Infact you hate Russia more then you love america. That is what makes your world go around and make sense - hating Russia.

I am British

I dont love America or Russia. I mistrust those who run both countries. I admit I have a few American friends and no Russian ones, but I hate Russia in the same way I hate Bolivia. I dont have any Bolivian friends either. But I am quite sure if did I would like my American, Russian and Bolivian friends equally. But maybe sometimes disagree with them on some issues (I very much disagree with some of my American friends on some issue. But not as much as I disagree with some of my British friends on some issues)

Point is: this is nothing about liking or disliking a country or inhabitants of a country. It is simply about determining the truth based on the available evidence.

There is no evidence anyone - Russian, Ukranian, American or Bolivian - deliberately shot down MH17. There is strong evidence that it was shot down by mistake by someone using a Russian BUK SAM from rebel controlled territory in Ukraine (and nothing that I am aware of to suggest it was shot down by any other means)

Sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes they own up. Sometimes they try and frame someone else.