Universalism

Universalism. A topic debated by many sects of Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, and many other Abrahamic Religions.
The core idea of Universalism, is the idea that everybody, regardless of your religious beliefs, sins, or crimes against God, goes to Heaven. And that a loving God would not damn His children to an eternity in Hell.

I've been reading through the Bible, I've seen no scriptures that directly mention Hell. In fact, Hell is a word that the English put into the Bible, based off of a folk demon named 'Hel'.

It was heavily implied in the Bible that Jesus died for all of the world's sins in advance. Rather than simply those who profess the Christian religion.

I for one, am skeptical with regards to Universalism. I refuse to believe that God would damn His children to an eternity of Hell, especially because we cannot commit an eternity's worth of sins here on Earth.

Thoughts?

originally posted by: AGustOfWind312
Universalism. A topic debated by many sects of Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, and many other Abrahamic Religions.
The core idea of Universalism, is the idea that everybody, regardless of your religious beliefs, sins, or crimes against God, goes to Heaven. And that a loving God would not damn His children to an eternity in Hell.

I've been reading through the Bible, I've seen no scriptures that directly mention Hell. In fact, Hell is a word that the English put into the Bible, based off of a folk demon named 'Hel'.

It was heavily implied in the Bible that Jesus died for all of the world's sins in advance. Rather than simply those who profess the Christian religion.

I for one, am skeptical with regards to Universalism. I refuse to believe that God would damn His children to an eternity of Hell, especially because we cannot commit an eternity's worth of sins here on Earth.

Thoughts?

Universalism is just another distraction from learning the truth, taking and accepting God's free gift.

NONE of us deserve to go to "heaven" or "eternal life". There is one way, and it is free.

Romans 10:9 And if you will confess with your mouth our Lord Yeshua, and you will believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall have life.

John 3:16 For God loved the world in this way: so much that he would give up his Son, The Only One, so that everyone who trusts in him shall not be lost, but he shall have eternal life.

Romans 6:23 But the product of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life in our Lord Yeshua The Messiah.



The number of times that love is mentioned in the Bible depends on the version of the Bible. In the King James Version, love is mentioned 310 times, 131 times in the Old Testament and 179 times in the New Testament.


The word 'LOVE' appears about 45 times in the whole of the Quran mostly in expressions such as ( in love; love of wealth; love of life; love of Allah; love of woman; love of self; love of other believers or love in the abstract; 2:177; 3:31, 103, 119;5:54; 9:23; 19:96; 38:32 etc).

The Quran, unlike the Bible does not encourage love of strangers or any others who are not 'believers in Allah and his prophet'.

In the Bible on the other hand, this word is mentioned at least 155 times in all its forms and manifestations. In the form of loving the STRANGER (Lev.19:34; Deut10:19) & NEIGHBOUR (Lev.19:18), the Quran is silent.

The ordinances on how well to treat the stranger and neighbour are over 150 times in the Bible while none are mentioned in the Quran.

Like the OP, I read through the entire KJV to see if Hell was so or not. I documented my findings in book form, and have passed the 50,000 word and 200 page marks. My conclusions are that Hell is a theological insertion, as the word and the concept come from paganism. Further, I find, if we take Hell as true, that God, the author of the text, is curiously silent on the subject. He did not create Hell, did not threaten anyone with it, never prescribed it in the Law, and never relegated anyone to it in the Biblical record. I could not even find a connection between Satan and Hell!

Hell is an assertion based on theo-illogical flim-flam, the fictions of Dante, Milton and Baxter, and Christians who never bother to check their Bibles to see if it is true.

Now as to whether everyone goes to Heaven or not, we must first understand that it is the Kingdom of Heaven, not the harp-on-a-cloud Heaven so often believed in. Besides Hell, I also failed to find any support in the Bible that carnal death seals our eternal fate. OTOH, I did find that it is far, far better to accept the Lordship of Jesus in this life.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

What was your take on the wailing and gnashing of teeth? On the Lazerus and the rich man parable? On the "better to have a millstone attached to his neck and be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble?"

I'm really curious because the notion of hell bothers me. I mean, for some of the most horrendous depraved criminals, I think there should be some form of meet justice but I don't know what that might be.

You confuse me.
point one

Universalism. A topic debated by many sects of Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, and many other Abrahamic Religions.
The core idea of Universalism, is the idea that everybody, regardless of your religious beliefs, sins, or crimes against God, goes to Heaven. And that a loving God would not damn His children to an eternity in Hell.

point two

I for one, am skeptical with regards to Universalism.

OK fine. you are skeptical about point one as you state in point two.

point three you say

I refuse to believe that God would damn His children to an eternity of Hell, especially because we cannot commit an eternity's worth of sins here on Earth.

Can you see my confusion here? First you state the thought of universalism, then you say you disagree with and then when you say why you disagree with it is because you agree with it.....

originally posted by: infolurker

The word 'LOVE' appears about 45 times in the whole of the Quran mostly in expressions such as ( in love; love of wealth; love of life; love of Allah; love of woman; love of self; love of other believers or love in the abstract; 2:177; 3:31, 103, 119;5:54; 9:23; 19:96; 38:32 etc).

The Quran, unlike the Bible does not encourage love of strangers or any others who are not 'believers in Allah and his prophet'.

In the Bible on the other hand, this word is mentioned at least 155 times in all its forms and manifestations. In the form of loving the STRANGER (Lev.19:34; Deut10:19) & NEIGHBOUR (Lev.19:18), the Quran is silent.

The ordinances on how well to treat the stranger and neighbour are over 150 times in the Bible while none are mentioned in the Quran.

You should stay away from the Quran since you don't appear to understand it. The Quran only forbids Muslims from being friends to those who have openly fought against them. I don't think many people are in the habit of making friends out of their oppressors. So the Quran seems to be giving sound advice.

Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Quran 7:159)

Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. (60:8)

Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.(60:9)

You can read more here if you want to learn about the Quran from a perspective other than intolerance.

www.islamicity.org...

Islam in not wahhabism. The Quran instructs peace in times of peace. The Quran forbids any type of strike first mentality. The Quran only allows one to defend oneself and ones religion from oppression. If the oppressors are killing your brothers, the Quran calls forth all Muslims to defend themselves until every oppressor has been eliminated or surrendered themselves to peace.

The Quran permits Muslims to make friends with the Christians, Jews, and others who will agree to live at peace with them. But it commands Muslims to live as peaceful non-aggressors in times of peace.

a reply to: Isurrender73

So,

Do you think YHWH (Yahweh) The God Of Israel, is Allah?

a reply to: AGustOfWind312

If I tell my child I will punish you for doing wrong and then punish them I believe I am still Loving them.

If someone chooses to side with demons and God gives them what they want is that not unconditional love?

Why condemn God for his judgments when he gave man freewill?

We don't have the mind of God, we don't understand his ways, and we have no idea what his judgments are.

I won't pick a side when it comes to universalism as I can only know the fate of my own soul. I like the sound of universalism, but I am not God.

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: Isurrender73

So,

Do you think YHWH (Yahweh) The God Of Israel, is Allah?

Moses said One God, Jesus said One God, Muhammed said One God. So yes they all believe in One God. Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. Allah is not a name any more then God is a name.

Muhammad is guilty of repeating what Jesus said about the religious. In Mathew 7 Jesus points out to the leaders that they have made laws that are in opposition to the Torah, implying they did not fully understand the Torah.

Muhammad told his followers the Torah, Psalms and Gospel of the Holy Spirit (New Testament) were all from God but the Jews and Christians were following poor interpretations that caused them to live in opposition to God.

I agree with Muhammad. I do not believe in Original Sin, nor do I believe in Ritual Salvation, which are the key components of Christianity and Jewdaism.

Original Sin negates freewill and makes a man a prisoner to sin. Ritual Salvation traps the mind in unjustified self-righteousness.

I believe in freewill and judgment based on one's deeds. Because faith without deeds is dead.

I don't agree with the trinity and neither did Muhammad. Jesus, Muhammed and I all think the father is greater. That is if you actually believe what Jesus plainly said about himself.

Muhammad calls Jesus the Word of God and Spirit from him. I believe the father was never born because he has no beginning. And I believe Jesus is the Firstborn, the light/Holy Spirt born out of the word of God, "let there be light".

Jesus Christ is the creation and the Spirit of creation. We were made by, through, and for him, but he was born just like John said. He is not his father, but he is unified in mind and spirit with the father, because they act as one.

The Hadith says Jesus is not the son of God but that can't be found in the Quran. And there is a least one interpretation of the Quran that correctly translates Jesus as the son of God.

You can download that interpretation free.

IMO this is the best interpretation of the Quran I have studied from and would recommend to anyone who is searching for a better understanding of Islam.

www.holybooks.com...

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: Lazarus Short

What was your take on the wailing and gnashing of teeth? On the Lazerus and the rich man parable? On the "better to have a millstone attached to his neck and be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble?"

I'm really curious because the notion of hell bothers me. I mean, for some of the most horrendous depraved criminals, I think there should be some form of meet justice but I don't know what that might be.

Wailing and gnashing of teeth - It goes along with what Jesus said about some of the first being last, and some of the last being first. At the Judgment, and I speculate somewhat here, some will expect to step into a high position in the Kingdom. When they are judged unworthy of reward and sent out the door (like the guy at the wedding feast who lacked proper clothes), they will wail and gnash their teeth. It is just a very human response to being humbled, and Hell is not mentioned.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - There are other ways to interpret this parable. I believe Jesus was using the Hades ideas current in His time and place to tell a story about the nation of Judah versus the rest of the world. Judah was rich in the things of God, the rest of the world (Lazarus) was poor in them. He was telling a veiled story about Judah's true position before God, and the misery it would soon endure in 70 AD. Lastly, He predicted that they would not believe if One were to come back from the dead - Jesus Himself. We know the rich man was Judah, because the literal man Judah had five full brothers (you can check it in Genesis), just like in the parable.

"better to have a millstone attached to his neck and be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble?" - Jesus could have said, "Better to die than cause one of these little ones to stumble," but He was being rhetorical. He did not mention Hell, so again, Hell is here a mental insertion.

It's much like the biology text you may remember from High School. There would be a page with an outline of a human body, and transparent pages in lurid colors to overlay it, and see the muscles, organs, bones, etc. In the same way, Hell is asserted for texts that would not otherwise indicate it. I found a lot of the Bible to be like that. When you take the word out, you would never even imagine the idea. Look at Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." The creation of Hell is not mentioned, and how do people miss that? With that foundation, you can read forward with growing confidence and deconstruct Hell, and you don't need to be a theologian to do so. I used little besides an Oxford English Dictionary, Strong's and Young's Concordances, and an online interlinear Bible.

I could go on and on, but consider Jeremiah 19:5 - "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:" See? Burning human beings in the fire is a concept totally foreign and abhorrent to God. If God had prepared Hell for sinners, and knew He was going to keep them in Hellfire for eternity, He would have been lying in that verse, but He never lies - therefore Hell is excluded.

If you need more answers, come visit at tentmaker.org

a reply to: infolurker

The Quran, unlike the Bible does not encourage love of strangers or any others who are not 'believers in Allah and his prophet'.

Please don't lie about my religion. The Qur'an requires Muslims to perform charity, including Zakat, which is a yearly form of required charity. It also constantly tells us to help the needy and orphans. The 2nd Surah of the Qur'an is full of references to us performing charity, with one of the most blatant examples being Surah 2:215 (Pickthall translation):

215. They ask thee, (O Muhammad), what they shall spend. Say: that which ye spend for good (must go) to parents and near kindred and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer. And whatsoever good ye do, lo! Allah is Aware of it.

And even Zakat is to be used to help the poor and the needy, as is stated in Surah 8:41 (HERE):

Sahih International translation
41. Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

Pickthall translation
41. The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarer; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.

ETA: For anyone interested, here's a link to some of the different references to charity in the Qur'an. "Sadaqa" is usually understood to be voluntary charity while "Zaqat" is mandatory, even though the Qur'an sometimes seems to use the words interchangeably.

CHARITY (Sadaqa) in Quranic Verses

Interesting to note that Jesus is mentioned 5x more than Mohammed in the Holy Quran...

I only mention this due to the fact that 'THEY' (nefarious turds) can now get anyone/anything to "appear" via CGI means, like when Prince Charles was visible for 7,000 miles for The Summit a few years ago. Now some entity w/Grief on their minds can now get Jesus, Mohammed or GODzilla for that matter to appear and be the 'salvation' that many are searching for...

Did You mean ALL those who claim the Jewish faith who are occupying Israel are going against The Torah? Only The Creator can restore their "Home Land" as it was The Creator who kicked them out.. 'In for a dime; in for a dollar'
www.truetorahjews.org...

"Religion™ is for folks afraid of Hell, "Spirituality" is for folks who've already been..." -The Great Sioux Nation

Shalom

a reply to: Isurrender73

Moses said One God, Jesus said One God, Muhammed said One God. So yes they all believe in One God. Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. Allah is not a name any more then God is a name.

The Bible clearly teachers there are other gods and they do not compare to the God of Israel . When in Egypt Moses took on the gods there . It would not be a challenge if they didn't exist ,now would it . The God of the Bible is often compared to the other gods and found to be superior . Kind of a useless comparison if they were only myths eh . They might as well compare Him to Mickey Mouse or Batman . There are other beings (gods) but none of them are like the creator God that created them and us .

a reply to: JimNasium

And the Prophet who's mentioned the most in the Qur'an is the Prophet Moses/Musa.

I actually like the general concept of Universalism and have found a lot of their adherents to be incredibly good & tolerant people. But I differ on the idea that everybody will get into Heaven. It wouldn't make sense for people who enjoy harming and killing others to get there. It's also hard for me to accept that God would allow into Heaven the very people who hate or reject Him and the entire notion of Heaven in the first place.

a reply to: infolurker

No ever loving God of all things would make it nigh impossible to go to heaven.

originally posted by: Dwoodward85
a reply to: infolurker

No ever loving God of all things would make it nigh impossible to go to heaven.

No ever-loving God of all things would make it possible to go to Hell.

a reply to: AGustOfWind312

A child once asked "Will Skippy go to heaven?"

Skippy was a dog who was 'put to sleep' after he was too old to walk or see or do much of anything.

The Vet reached over to a book case and pulled out a Bible and flipped to the back and read, "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie." Rev 22:14,15.

The child then said, "So if I stay outside the city then I can be with Skippy. Okay."

"No! No!" exclaimed the Vet, "You should go into the city. Bad stuff is outside; murderers and adulterers, you probably don't know what that is but it's bad, and liars too."

"But if I die like Skippy then murderers can't hurt me and people lie anyway and that's where Skippy is."
=======================

It would be nice to say that this story had a happy ending but ... the Vet told the parents what the child had said.

originally posted by: Dwoodward85
a reply to: infolurker

No ever loving God of all things would make it nigh impossible to go to heaven.

I disagree, especially if you see if from this perspective: This Universe is a simulated dimension and our bodies here are avatars for our souls. The point in a temporary life here is for our souls to prove their true intentions and spiritual capacity. Every single soul will face the same basic kinds of tests, such whether or not we'll steal, lie, rape, kill, oppress, be good parents/elders to the young, or help God's other Creations on Earth. The souls that are kind and do good things have passed those tests and should make it to the "real" dimension (Heaven).

From that perspective, it wouldn't make sense for the "failure" spirits to also make it Heaven. That's especially true if Heaven were filled with lifeforms that are naturally smaller, weaker, or more gullible than we are. It also wouldn't make sense for the souls who openly oppose the rulers of that real dimension to get there. (Note: This is basically the point in my religion, just put in "modern/sci-fi terms".)

I see it like humans creating potentially dangerous AI robots. We would be fools to immediately release the untested ones into our cities and homes. It would make far more sense for us to put them in a "sandbox" and observe them. The ones that are nurturing and kind when they think no one is looking would probably pass our tests and be "worthy" of being introduced into our communities. But the ones that are violent, belligerent, abusive, and greedy would probably "fail" our tests and be scrapped.

I'd also imagine that the ones that reject, hate, or mock the "fairy tale" called "humans" would probably also be rejected. It could be as simple as God & His Angels rejecting potential troublemakers. After all, even humans don't allow threats into our homes. Some of you don't even want refugees who you see as potential threats to be allowed into our country, even if they're relocated in completely different States from you.

It's a shame you lot read the bible in its entirety but won't pick up a book that proves its fabrication and justification. Hurts me inside as the knowledge is easily accessable.ah well.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: AGustOfWind312

A child once asked "Will Skippy go to heaven?"

Skippy was a dog who was 'put to sleep' after he was too old to walk or see or do much of anything.

The Vet reached over to a book case and pulled out a Bible and flipped to the back and read, "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie." Rev 22:14,15.

The child then said, "So if I stay outside the city then I can be with Skippy. Okay."

"No! No!" exclaimed the Vet, "You should go into the city. Bad stuff is outside; murderers and adulterers, you probably don't know what that is but it's bad, and liars too."

"But if I die like Skippy then murderers can't hurt me and people lie anyway and that's where Skippy is."
=======================

It would be nice to say that this story had a happy ending but ... the Vet told the parents what the child had said.

Well said.