Had enough yet?

To tell you the truth I feel really bad for all americans who have faithfully
gone to the polls time after time, believing that they can actually make a
difference in where this country is going.

While I myself have never believed that. And have never even considered
voting. Nor will I ever. And election after election I can see it become more
and more apparent. My reasons for boycotting the vote are true.

And this latest fiasco shows the deterioration of american politics has become
exceedingly exponential. My question to ATS is, will it ever get bad enough that
you see it's completely useless? If what's going on right now isn't enough to make
you realise the futility of it all? Then I doubt it ever will get bad enough.

And I'm sorry to say it, but if you're still going to the polls? Then you deserve the
choices you have. Get real people. We're out of time and this election is one
big distraction. And that's all. I don't know what we're being distracted from.
But I do know a distraction when I see one. This is not good people, not at all.

These parties need to go! You give either one of them the full 8 years (which they usually seem to get) the past 20 or so years and they batter across like a wrecking ball. Each time the rubble pile is just bigger and bigger, while the wrecking ball gets bigger and bigger each 4 year election cycle. Following this pattern, the earth's core will explode during the next few elections (if it doesn't before then)!

We need a new way. A new movement. A new model. A new government. A new system (or the system heavily modified and then REBOOTED). We need an Alt/Alt....

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

But isn't it true that governments aren't made to modify, evolve or
change? They are made to expand or die?

When it comes to voting, I had had enough a long time ago personally.

In my youth, I never saw a candidate I could feel comfortable within my conscience voting for. As I became an adult, and the responsibility (ostensibly) of voting weighed on said conscience, I considered whether some small amount of compromise was at least reasonable for any semblance of greater good. Yet even there I failed to find a candidate I could live with myself if I voted for them.

Decades later, and I still can't find one. To me, a vote is my placing my energy and support - however small and insignificant it may be - behind someone. That means that whatever they do, I am in some tiny measure culpable for. When a president ends up in a scandal that reveals corruption, willful deception, betrayal of the public trust, or the deaths of innocents, that's on me if I voted for them. I already feel guilt for other things I'm indirectly responsible for, but have no choice about (what our tax dollars pay for - some things I agree with, others I don't - or just knowing that living in a first world country I am in some indirect way probably responsible for the suffering or impoverishing of someone, somewhere.) But a vote is a conscious choice. It's on me. I needed to know there was someone I could sleep at night having voted for them.

I at least wanted someone who would 1) uphold the constitution rather than curtailing it (which both parties do, just at different ends of the spectrum imo,) 2) be reasonably likely to be less willing to engage in actions, foreign policies, or conflicts which cost more innocent lives caught in the middle than we can count at this point, 3) would lead with decorum and a genuine spirit of service rather than as a defender of their "side" or in pursuit of a legacy attached to their name, 4) would uphold human and civil rights in all respects, and 5) would find a means of stabilizing debt and the budget without also completely throwing the poor and/or women under the bus.

I would prefer a lot more than those, but those are my bare minimum standards. The only candidate I ever came close to voting for was Bernie Sanders. Once his positions became clearer though, I withdrew my support for him as well.

I have no enmity toward any of our candidates. I don't take part in the schadenfreude-laden cheerleading that seems to dominate American politics. I don't hate anyone, or their supporters. Quite the contrary. I simply need to be able to live with myself at the end of the day. There hasn't been a candidate in my life time I would vote for. And that's assuming our votes actually matter... my opinion of which tends to oscillate. (After this last primary season, that view is skewing negative again somewhat.)

Peace.

If you don't vote, don't bitch

originally posted by: acackohfcc
If you don't vote, don't bitch

One could easily say the same about those whose candidates win and then do all the things they subsequently get criticized for. But that would be wrong too, imho. People who vote have the right to change their minds. And people who don't vote have the right to express themselves, in hopes of one day finding someone to vote for that doesn't profoundly aggrieve their conscience.

Our consciences are profound sources of our individuality, born of our very spirits (if you believe in the existence of such; if not, even then, it's a part of who we are.) Listening to them, and carefully weighing our options, educating ourselves, and then making a choice - even a choice not to vote - is participation. Silence is a form of expression, too.

Sure, sure, I know what people always say. "Well okay, you have the RIGHT to complain if you don't vote, but no one will care what you say because you didn't participate." I did participate, though. We have the right to research, consider, and then vote or abstain. We are not compelled against our will to vote. I am exercising my freedom not to vote.

I will go on respecting the views and opinions of those who do vote, and politely asking only the same in return. People are free to refuse me that of course. But that won't stop me from expressing myself. That's how this works.

Peace.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

We need a new way. A new movement. A new model. A new government. A new system (or the system heavily modified and then REBOOTED). We need an Alt/Alt....

We had the 'third way' with New Labour in the 1990s. There was a euphoria and enthusiasm that swept the country and millions sincerely thought we were going to see a better politician and a better nation.

What we got was dragged into two wars, a massive ratcheting up of the surveillance state and eventually the descent into recession. The rich-poor divide yawned even further apart and politicians went on a free-for-all in expenses claims.

What's my point?! You're overdue for a *new way* and it'll inevitably be the same old horsesh** you've already got.

a reply to: AceWombat04

I agree with the statement that if I voted for someone and they committed an atrocity like the death of someone then that also rests on my shoulders. The first election that I voted in was the 2012 election simply to vote against Obama and the criminal behavior he had been committing. I live in Illinois, cook county, just outside Chicago by Bedford park. Just after he was elected senator here in Illinois on the promise that he was going to bring jobs back to Illinois. I watched Bedford park, a town of 95℅ large businesses lose about 1/2 of those companies and the job market get worse, then I watched his first 4 years in office and things get even worse. There was a time in Bedford park when you could literally walk down the street and be offered 2 or 3 jobs within a mile, now the job market here sucks, so I voted against him in the 2012 election. I will vote against anyone who doesn't make this country a better place.

See this is the problem... there are many of us --- not enough but many --- that have realized that politics in the U.S. are a fraud and the whole Dem/Rep dynamic perpetuates that fraud. The only possible path out is by voting BOTH parties out. But unfortunately too many people believe THEIR Rep/Dem candidate will be the one that will 'change' things and that voting for anyone besides the anointed Dem/Rep is pointless. So they perpetuate the fraud. People like the OP and his ilk are the very ones that COULD create a change but they stay on the sidelines thereby having zero effect on the outcome allowing the PTB to lead the sheep at-will. If people like the OP and those of us trying to derail the status quo organized and voted for a third party we could seriously screw things up for the PTB. But instead, they'll stay home and we'll end up with either Donald or Hillary in what will be the saddest and likely most damaging Presidential election in history. I can't entirely blame the Trump/HRC supporters 'cause they've proven themselves to be utterly clueless. But you, OP, and those like you... this is on you.

a reply to: randyvs

Its not just the US Randy .It would seem that the western forms of democracy only offer us their (tptp) choices .Don't be fooled by Trump because its only a family feud business . The system is corrupt because it was designed to be corruptible and corrupt have power hungry eyes and deep pockets they would like to fill .

I have had fleeting moments where I went to the polls .I think it was more of a desperation of hope ,but have come to realize that even putting a independent in the body of politics will not work . They get marginalized and ignored and then tptb make sure that if you want a few of the crumbs that could fall in your location ,to vote for the status quo .

originally posted by: acackohfcc
If you don't vote, don't bitch

If you vote for a Republican or Democrat, don't b*tch.

Wow... look where this thread ended up. The Trump v. HRC sheep have driven it to the cellar. Goes to exactly what I posted above. We're doomed if everyone that sees the pointlessness of the current political fraud stays on the sidelines.

originally posted by: acackohfcc
If you don't vote, don't bitch

I can bitch about how your vote doesn't
mean squawt all day long.

Last guy I voted for was John Anderson in the 70s. I was impressed with his "we can fix this, but it's going to hurt" attitude. A truth that guaranteed his not getting elected.

Consider: every piece of legislation that has made the U.S. a worse place to live, to any extent, has been put in place by the Dems and Reps. Every non-balanced budget, every war we started, constantly rising taxes, every loss of freedom, from Dems and Reps.

I say abolish both parties. Ban anyone who held office or ran under their banners from holding office for at least 20 years. Banning all parties would be a plus, too. Get rid of the "my team is #1" mentality. I don't know if this would fix it, but it would be a good start.

Then we'd just have to figure out how to get the money out of politics, and do something about corporate driven professional lobbiests. No small order, true. Doing these things would certainly shake things up, and make a lot of people uncomfortable.

But you know what? We can fix it, but it's going to hurt.

a reply to: randyvs

Had enough? Yes, I have.

I'm a big proponent of not voting, it's much better than voting for someone you don't like.

Unfortunately, I'm in Ohio so my vote probably matters... a lot. I feel a bit obligated to vote for that matter, even though I don't really want to.

a reply to: jtma508

But you, OP, and those like you... this is on you.

You know, what the hell? Why not? So goes the blame game!

a reply to: jtma508

The problem is, I can't live with my conscience voting for any of the third party candidates either. (And yes, I've researched ALL of them, very thoroughly. Their lives, their voting records where one exists, their positions, etc. And yes, I know there are many, many more than one or two, far more than Johnson and Stein.) I've carefully considered them all, tried my utmost to compromise and find one I could support... and I just can't personally.

I refuse to condemn those who do the above and, out of conscience, choose to vote, in a sincere effort to do what they believe is right, even if I disagree with them. All I ask is the same consideration and decorum and respect in return. But, of course, that's your prerogative.

Peace.

Thanks for your posts everyone!