SM-6 hits over horizon target using F-35B as sensor

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: TheScale

Again, no I'm not. The HMDS shows the pilot where to look for the target. The pilot looks at the target, the missile locks on. Without the pilot looking at the target, the missile doesn't see the target. Without the symbology on the display, the pilot has no idea where that Su-35 is, at 40 miles. He wouldn't know it was there until it was within visual range. Without knowing where to look, to let the missile see the target, the missile isn't going to lock on.

Here's the real question. Does the missile sensor itself have a wide field of view?

Yes: I would imagine the problem is more that if the missile sensor has a wide field of view, and is sensitive, then there would be potentially too many potential targets, and the missile would have to choose one arbitrarily, with poor results. Pilot looks to point the sensor logic to the closest point.

No: Missile itself has a narrow field of view but is integrated with the software of the launching aircraft so that upon launch it reorients itself inertially to the direction that the pilot was looking at and then hopes to find a target in its narrow sensor view.

In either case, the helmet display is nice, rapid and effective, but wouldn't necessarily be essential except for visual-only. If the adversary target were recognized on the targeting computer, then a pilot could conceivably use an old-school scroll-wheel until the right target is selected, and then fire.

Certainly in stressful situations the helmet-method is superior.

a reply to: mbkennel

The initial FoV for the AIM-9B was 25 degrees. The AIM-9X FoV is 80-90 degrees, using an IR Focal Plane Array sensor.

a reply to: mbkennel

thank you. thats what ive been trying to get across. one is a function of the targeting system the other is just a visual display of information giving feedback to the pilot.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: TheScale

Again, no I'm not. The HMDS shows the pilot where to look for the target. The pilot looks at the target, the missile locks on. Without the pilot looking at the target, the missile doesn't see the target. Without the symbology on the display, the pilot has no idea where that Su-35 is, at 40 miles. He wouldn't know it was there until it was within visual range. Without knowing where to look, to let the missile see the target, the missile isn't going to lock on.

again theres plenty of other systems on the dash that can also relay that to the pilot. an mfd can be hooked up to the telemetry coming from the helmet and scan the skies in the same way. theres redundant systems for a reason incase things like the hmd fails.

a reply to: TheScale

And without the visual display the pilot doesn't know where to look for the targeting. The AIM-9X wouldn't be able to find the specific target without the HMD. No HMD, no HOBS. It's that simple.

a reply to: TheScale

You can't fight your aircraft looking down. The AIM-9X is designed to work with an HMCS, which is built into the HMD. Without it, the HOBS doesn't work, period. There's too much information coming to the seeker.

a reply to: Zaphod58

i think your forgetting that most missiles give u a tone when they are tracking a target. u dont need a hmd (head mounted DISPLAY) for that. the display isnt doing any targeting its just relaying info from the targeting systems and other things to the pilot. an mfd on the dash can tell the pilot where his threats are and he could look in that direction. shoot even with a bore sight u could do that. theres a difference between the display in the helmet and the head and eye tracking. shoot if u wanted the systems for head tracking and eye tracking would take up an area the size of a shoe box with the redundant systems with technology fromt he private sector. they work in harmony with each other but in no way is a display doing the actual targeting. its just relaying data to the pilot to make his life easier.

a reply to: TheScale

And without the HMD you're just turning circles waiting for that tone to sound and have no idea where to look to target. So if you want to just turn circles and let your seeker look for targets, you go right ahead. However, the entire point of HOBS is that you don't have to turn the aircraft to target the missile. That means that you need to have an HMD so that you can look and target that aircraft that's 90 degrees off your wing, or even over your shoulder. Without it, you have no HOBS capability. The HMD is more than a DISPLAY, which is what I've been saying for several pages now. It is the display, as well as the cuing system for the AIM-9X. That's why it's called the HMDS.

a reply to: Zaphod58

like i keep saying theres other systems that could be used as backups to do the same thing and i bet u the plane has them as redundant systems in case the pilot loses the hmd. and hmd is just a way of visualizing data. its not doing the targeting, its not locking the missile. for some reason u cant seem to disconnect the 2 from each other which leads me to believe u just dont quite understand how the system works. i get it works in harmony with the targeting system. it in no way is doing any targeting though. it would be like saying the engine is responsible for controlling the direction the plane flies in when its the control surfaces doing that work. yeah they work together but they are seperate. only difference is u cant turn a plane without one or the other. their are other ways of doing that without a head mounted display though. like it says its a display, it gives info to the pilot.it would be akin to saying your monitor that u are looking at on your pc is doing the processing, no its just getting the data from the gpu and displaying that info for you

a reply to: TheScale

Yes, there are redundant systems, all military aircraft have redundant systems. The HMDS however, is part of the targeting system of the AIM-9X. If it wasn't, then you would be able to fire a HOBS shot without it. You can't. Without the helmet system, the AIM-9X looks basically straight ahead like any other missile. I understand how the system works, and I have no problem separating the different parts of it. But the simple fact is that to get a HOBS shot, you have to have the helmet to help with targeting.

Provides weapons targeting by looking at and designating
targets, and target verification when receiving steering cues
from onboard sensors or via datalink

www.rockwellcollins.com... et.aspx

The aircraft is targeting with various sensors, but to show the missile where to go, you have to have the helmet as part of the chain, and show the missile where the target is. Without it, you don't get HOBS with it. Or maybe you can explain how the F-22 isn't capable of firing the AIM-9X off boresight. Their pilots don't have a helmet mounted system, but use the AIM-9X. The F-22 can only target within a limited FoV, whereas anything with a helmet mounted system and a HOBS missile, can target all around the aircraft, even behind them.

a reply to: Zaphod58

exactly. the problem was u kept referring to the hmd which is just the visual aspect. its the head tracking and eye tracking that is tied in together like i mentioned in earlier posts that sends the telemetry to the missile.

a reply to: TheScale

The HMD is part of the system in this case, which is why it's the HMDS. Without it you can't find the target, which means you can't tell the missile where to look, which means no HOBS shots. In the F-35 the HMD is used as the targeting system for the weapons.

a reply to: Zaphod58

back to square one i guess. u can still tell the missile where to go with zero visual reference on the hmd, u just cant tell the pilot where to look cause he wont have the visual aid. head tracking and eye tracking are a separate system the hmd draws telemetry from aswell.

a reply to: TheScale

The pilot looking is what tells the missile where to look. If other sensors did that the F-22 would be capable of HOBS launches. It's not. Still waiting for your explanation on that. If sensors on board can tell the missile where to go why can't the F-22 use the AIM-9X for HOBS until they have a helmet sight?

a reply to: [post=21251985]Zaphod58[/post

because the f-22 doesnt have the hardware installed. if u understood just how basic of technology that is youd understand its not a difficult thing to do, its just a matter of money and id bet on it that they will be retrofitted with the system at some point cause it is so basic. just working out the kinks first while testing it on the f-35. all it takes is an accelerometer some cameras that track eye movement and some really cheap soc's to do the processing. in all with the redundant systems it would probly take up the area of a shoebox, albiet theyd spread it around. the accelerometer and eye tracking sends the telemetry, which is probly being polled a thousand times a second, and relays that to the hmd which displays the image in relation to where the pilot is looking. the specialized aim 9 gets the same telemetry from the accelerometer and eye tracking so it knows where to look in space. u can eliminate the visual display and as long as the pilot is still looking in that direction so will the missile cause its still getting the telemetry. so u could have a complete malfunction of the hmd and the missile will still be getting the telemetry because the accelerometer and eye tracking are a seperate entity.

a reply to: TheScale

And without a display to know where to look it's blind chance to get a shot off. You can't fight the aircraft looking down in the cockpit.

But hey, whatever, if you want to be right so bad so be it, you're right, I'm wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about. Happy now?

a reply to: Zaphod58

im just trying to explain it so its more easily understood. this all started over u claiming the hmd is totally different then a hud. ive been trying to break down all the elements invovled. when i do u just claim im trying to be right when youve ignored the facts in front of u. im sorry if it wasnt clear enough, sometimes i have trouble expressing my thoughts through text. even mb up top gets its