Political correctness... will it ever end?

originally posted by: Swills
So if the Dem's are so bad to the LGBT community as you say then what can your party do for them?

I thought you'd remember me by now.

I'm not a conservative. I used to fight them all day every day for years (side by side with Dem's), like now I'm opposed to Obama / Clinton's just the same. It's because they're the same.

a reply to: RomeByFire

Political correctness... will it ever end? - One more time. Political correctness is not about politiical correctness its about suppressing free speech.

Words like tolerance, and diversity simply mean less whites, less christians.

Are words diversity and tolerance directed at the Islamic community by political leaders, media commentators, opinion molders and shock jocks?

Are the words diversity and tolerance directed at the Islamic community by Islamic political, cultural and religious leaders?

in future, note the number of times when these words are used, they are directed at the white and or christian community compared to the number of times they are directed at the Muslim community.

originally posted by: markosity1973
As a member of the alphabet people club, I find that graphic offensive.

So do I. Someone tried to use it as their avatar. I complained. It was removed.

As for the removal of gender titles in school, here is my 5 cents worth speaking as a gay male;

1) I acknowledge and support that there is such a thing as transgender folk out there.

2) Even transgender folk have to admit we are male or female. After all, the core of their issue is the fact they believe that they were born with the incorrect genitalia and want to become the opposite gender.

3) Therefore removing gender specific terms for boys and girls is as ludicrous as saying 'Well because we have straight, bisexual and gay people, we're going to throw away these terms and call everyone pan-sexual because we don't want to offend anybody'

Well, speaking as a woman of childhood trans experience, I don't find that your being a cisgender gay male gives you any particular insight into transgender issues nor are you really qualified to say what transgender folk "have to admit". Thank you, however, for acknowledging I and other trans folk exist in your number 1 point.

To address your number 2 point, not all or even most transgender people that transition to the opposite gender feel they have incorrect genitalia or a desire to change them. It's more of a social issue for some and not all trans people have the same degree of sex dysphoria as others. You are also discounting all the young non-traditionally trans folks that nevertheless are still non-binary, gender non-conforming/expansive, agender, gender fluid, etc.. You've painted everyone into either/or and black and white boxes and that just doesn't fit into the current generation of the many millennial student's various identities unless you're suggesting we invalidate them because they fall outside of your binary paradigm? That sounds more like being rude and disrespectful than non-PC? You're also mixing being being male or female with being boys or girls.

The proposition in you number three talking point is a ludicrous analogy.

I'm not one for removing gender specific terms in all situations across the board. I worked hard and went through a lot of sh!t in my young life to be a she, a her and a girl and found being referred to such as affirming BUT prior to that I still remember how painful it was to have another identity forced on to me through the use of opposite pronouns when describing or addressing me. Being stripped of "him", "he", "boy" would have been vastly preferable. I would have preferred being nothing if I couldn't be "her", "she", "girl". I remember going to school as neither a total boy or a girl and I hated being segregated or called out by gender . If I couldn't have been treated as a girl, I would have much been preferred I and everyone else be treated as gender neutral. There are several older threads from last year on this exact topic. Yes, trans and GNC/expansive kids are in the minority but they shouldn't have to be forced into boxes they do not belong. This isn't about being a "liberal" or an SJW, it is just having a better understanding of or different perspective on gender issues than you do.

Creating a new gray area helps absolutely nobody and it's about time the overly liberal boundary pushers were put on a leash.

Easy for you to say as a cisgender person. I'm sure that those that are neither cis or binary trans appreciate being considered "absolutely nobody". This has nothing to do with "liberal boundary pushers". It is the reality for much of today's youth that would rather not have their gender policed. Afraid of the anti-gay backlash if boundaries are pushed? Welcome to my world that already exists and thanks for that. (As a whole, not as an individual or personally. We're all pawns in the "alphabet agenda")

I'm not totally busting your chops. You've historically been very supportive in trans issues and as someone that does fit the cisnormative gender binary, I myself find all the ze, hir and they gender neutral pronouns awkward and difficult and a bit silly to certain degree but this is just from a perspective of privilege, the same position your comments have come from.

a reply to: RomeByFire

It will end when globalism ends, for it is a tool thereof.

So, like, don't hold your breath.

BTW I don't think your example of PC was quite the best you could have used. I would have thought the PC crowd would have applauded someone not standing to their national anthem.

They don't believe in countries, do they? And only in one government.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Kali74

I'm triggering. Make room for me in your safe space.

I have the best blankets.

a reply to: Freija

It's this kind of blathering rage that is doing the transgender cause in.

You can cis this, non binary and trans that all you want, but at the end of the day you are demanding that the majority become androgynous to support your point of view.

Transgender people have the right to follow the gender path that they feel they need to. Being a trans kid must be difficult, but so was being gay. So please lay off the lecturing. The thing a trans kid needs, like a gay kid, is support from people who know and understand. There are many schools now that have transgender kids openly among them. And those kids are perfectly happy to be John the boy who used to be Jane etc.

The gay rights movement never asked people to stop being straight or getting married or having children. We asked for acceptance and equality. We asked for marriage to be the same as everyone else. We did not ask everyone to stop having relationships and families because we were not allowed to.

Why then should transgender people ask us all to stop identifying as male or female? How is that equality when the majority has to give up their identity to keep a minority happy?

The way forward for transgender folk is to ask for acceptance for who they are and raise awareness of what it is like to be transgender. And along those lines, here is something that might interest you; believe it or not the Russians have produced a documentary series about Russian transgender folk on RT (in English) I have put a link to the playlist below

www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: markosity1973

It's this kind of blathering rage that is doing the transgender cause in.

You can cis this, non binary and trans that all you want, but at the end of the day you are demanding that the majority become androgynous to support your point of view.

Seriously? Are you kidding me with that statement? That's like saying marriage equality will lead to people marrying their toasters.

Transgender people have the right to follow the gender path that they feel they need to. Being a trans kid must be difficult, but so was being gay. So please lay off the lecturing. The thing a trans kid needs, like a gay kid, is support from people who know and understand.

And unlike the gay kid that the that can hide their sexuality or choose to be open about it because it's more common and accepted, transgender kids need doctors and endocrinologists and therapists and laws about where they can take a piss or if they can even exist. Similarity is not the same as equivalence. I wasn't even debating or speaking specifically about trans kids. Most are perfectly happy being boys or girls. That's kind of the whole point about changing gender.

There are many schools now that have transgender kids openly among them. And those kids are perfectly happy to be John the boy who used to be Jane etc.

For the maybe several hundred transgender kids that are out, seen in the media or on YouTube there are thousands that aren't that highly value their privacy and anonymity. My points weren't about transgender kids anyway, MOST transgender kids do fit into the traditional binary and I wasn't really talking about them anyway. I was speaking of those that aren't trans but are still gender non-conforming, gender expansive, non-binary and whatnot or that are trans but not transitioned.

I related my own experience of being gendered in a way that was uncomfortable and my belief that there are a lot more gender divided or segregated things going on in schools and classrooms than there needs to be. Since I wasn't being gendered in the way I wanted, I said I would have felt better if nobody was gendered which did not mean I wished everyone was genderless. That's ridiculous. What I was trying to point out was that there are many kids that do fall between the cracks of being completely boys or girls and when they are labeled with a gender they feel doesn't fit them, it isn't a good feeling. It stings and hurts every time especially when coming from educators. Things like lining kids up by gender or separating them into groups by gender can leave some kids out and simple things like this could and should be eliminated. It hurts no one or makes no special demands on anyone to do this. Respecting someone's preferred pronouns does nothing to invalidate straight kids either.

I could make the argument that the non-binary, agender, bi-gender, genderqueer and 47 other flavor of gender kids that aren't trans, their "blathering rage" if you will as they're the most vocal and visible, is hurting the cause of the truly transgender children that just want to be binary and fit in but I won't throw these other gender variant groups under the bus and invalidate who they are just because I got mine, so to speak.

The gay rights movement never asked people to stop being straight or getting married or having children. We asked for acceptance and equality. We asked for marriage to be the same as everyone else. We did not ask everyone to stop having relationships and families because we were not allowed to.

Why then should transgender people ask us all to stop identifying as male or female? How is that equality when the majority has to give up their identity to keep a minority happy?

OMG! I find your comment that transgender people are suggesting that people stop identifying as male or female to be incredulous and something I would expect to hear from the alt-right. Nobody is saying any such thing. My contention was that when enforcing strict male or female identities in schools, it is less than inclusive or isn't broadly encompassing enough to include everyone. Minimizing that problem in no way forces or asks for anyone to "give up their identity to keep a minority happy". Unbelievable!

The way forward for transgender folk is to ask for acceptance for who they are and raise awareness of what it is like to be transgender.

Should they bow their heads and curtsey too while quietly begging for that acceptance as to not offend anyone's sensibilities when they're being discriminated against and legislated against and when a certain political party has a genocidal crusade against them? Should they just be okay with intentionally being mis-gendered, denigrated and made fun of while the propaganda suggests they're all bathroom molesters? I've literally spent hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of words here trying to raise awareness of what is like to be transgender. See how well that has gone over and how many minds have been changed? A few, sure but trust me, the detractors remain the vast majority and as they have dug their heels in are we expected to just roll over, acquiesce and wait another 20 years to gain parity? I fear the days of catching more flies with sugar approach have passed. And even you, because you're gay think you have some special insight into the trans experience and think you know what having your very identity as a person invalidated feels like... It irks me you played the gay card to comment on trans people.

What's funny is that my life is completely removed from trans issues and has been for well over forty years. These are not my problems and I don't belong to any "community" but yet I'm here and advocating and educating almost daily for others that aren't so fortunate and to bring understanding and perspective in these matters. It's too bad that doing so or bringing up these perspectives and points of view is considered to be PC madness or social justice warrioring.

I'll just crawl back in my hole now so no one, heaven forbid, has to be bothered or made uncomfortable thinking about these things lest I "do the transgender cause in".

a reply to: Freija



www.abovetopsecret.com...
The zero compromise on the school restrooms, where its supposed to be about giving this less than 1% of the population of gender dysphoric kids, a safe space to take a dump without getting bullied, yet flushes down the toilet the safe space of 100% of all the girls from sexual assault... Where ANY boy, ANY sexual predator/pervert/etc boy can simply say "I'm transgender", and then have free reign (including in elementary school), please tell us that's a reasonable method with a straight faced emoticon.

Princeton scrubs ‘men’ from campus
Princeton has become no man’s land.

The famed Ivy League institution rolled out a series of gender-neutral terms aimed at removing the word “man” and other male-leaning language from official school material.

As first reported Thursday by the conservative campus news outfit The College Fix, Princeton’s Human Resources and Office of Communications issued a four-page memo filled with examples of gender-neutral terminology that must now be used in official school documents

a reply to: RomeByFire

I seriously believe you are conflating a bunch of "patriots" outraged over this controversy with the "PC crowd" and I doubt they are the same people, but its the internet and it is easy to blame people and movements you don't fully understand without much actual research so I see why this thread exists.

a reply to: Freija

Wow, talk about have a meltdown. You are being super defensive and quite irrational.

Do not confuse resistance to the genderless school policies with resistance to transgender folk.

We all get that for you and all other transgender kids it is / was tough. But that does not mean the best way forward is to abandon all gender specific pronouns in education establishments.

originally posted by: markosity1973
a reply to: Freija

Wow, talk about have a meltdown. You are being super defensive and quite irrational.

Actually, I'm sure it seems that way but like I said, I think I might just be a little more informed on these issues and current policies than you are. Okay, maybe a lot more and the organizations I work with and things I'm tapped into actually have me coming from a place other than your uninformed opinions that lack any practical experience unless you have or are in touch with gender non-conforming/expansive kids or trans youth and their parents?

Do not confuse resistance to the genderless school policies with resistance to transgender folk.

Oh, I'm not and noted your previous support in other transgender threads. Don't you confuse gender inclusive policies with somehow being "genderless". I've provided some links below. Maybe you should do some reading to see what this all about before basing your opinion on what you think you know or feel?

We all get that for you and all other transgender kids it is / was tough. But that does not mean the best way forward is to abandon all gender specific pronouns in education establishments.

My alleged "meltdown" wasn't even about me or truly transgender kids per se. This is one of the difficult areas of discussion where the umbrella term of "transgender" is simply too broad in scope to be effective. It includes those that transition socially to live completely as the opposite gender as well as those that simply express their gender in non-typical ways.

There is a huge distinction, however, the same terminology is used to describe both, confused by the fact that there may be some overlap or outliers. Although considered derogatory, a pejorative and non-PC at this point, the new term for non truly transgender kids that are nevertheless, non-binary or gender non-conforming or gender variant is "transtrender".

As to the influence of political correctness I feel it to be unfortunate that the term transsexual, which is decisively more specific, has fallen from disuse or has been co-opted by others to gain some sort of legitimacy. Transsexual people change sex - transgender people change gender. Although my position on this is somewhat contentious and speaking more of adult demographics, I define someone that lives as the opposite gender from the sex they were assigned at birth that maybe takes hormones, has breast augmentation/reduction or has facial feminization surgery (FFS) for example, to be transgender. Socially, I accept them as women or men.

Speaking primarily of those that go in a male-to-female direction, If that person then goes on to have an actual sex change operation, i.e. sex reassignment surgery (SRS), then they are transsexual. Why this is contentious is because some consider any sort of medical intervention makes someone transsexual. Under current conventions, all transsexual people fall under the umbrella transgender classification but not all transgender people are transsexual. In scientific and medical literature, transsexual is used almost exclusively to refer to those that have changed sex or are on the short list to do so. Because it is considered non-PC, some never use it.

Why I've included this goes back to the discussion of children and why the umbrella term transgender and its lack of distinction is problematic. Kids don't change sex and by definition are transgender so we don't call them transsexual even though that's what nearly all suffering with gender dysphoria will be when they grow up. These kids, if able to socially transition are going to be traditionally binary and gender conforming. Like their adult counterparts, they are male-to-female or female-to-male, not typically male/female-to-something in between or undefined.

And then we have the others... Non-binary, gender fluid, bigender, genderqueer, pangender, polygender, in-betweeners and purple gender unicorns/whatever just to name a few. These kids all fall under the same transgender umbrella. Some will grow up to be gay, some will grow up to be straight and a few may even grow up and realize their various expressions were just stops along the journey to being transsexual. As transgender and transsexual identities develop it is often common to first come out as gay or have a non-traditional gender expression. What we don't want to do to either group is stifle who they are as people or not give them the space to figure it out.

For many, these developments or steps of self-realization are a process over time. For others, they are innate and intrinsic but this whole thing is complicated. For many of the transtrenders, a queer expression of gender may just be a phase that kids go through and often grow out of like emo, goth or punk. Is it really right that we force these young people into rigid male/female, masculine/feminine boxes or deny them the opportunity to figure out on their own who they are? What of the kids that will be transsexual in later years? Do we want to screw them up?

I don't thinks so. Kids that have the chance to explore who they, to develop their own identity, autonomy, individuality and agency often grow up to be phenomenal, interesting, creative and unique adults the world could use more of. Everyone is so concerned that schools are brainwashing and turning out mind-controlled PC automatons so why wouldn't we want to see the individuality of gender expression and identity fostered rather than inhibited by restrictive language and policy?

Respecting kids (and adults) for who they are, if their gender is boy or girl, neither or both is not hard to do and takes nothing away from any other child or affects their own identity in any way whatsoever.

Yeah, I'm all about those truly trans kids that are going to grow up and be "normal" men and women. That's my experience, that's what I know but I also know the world doesn't revolve around me or my experience and when it comes to gender, there is a spectrum and that even for those kids may be "transtrenders", they still need respect for who they want to be and dignity while they are figuring it out. It shouldn't be a school's job to mold or force kids into gendered boxes.

Suggested reading on this topic:

12 Easy Steps Toward Gender Inclusion

When the Gender Boxes Don’t Fit

The Experiences of Transgender Youth in Our Nation's Schools (PDF download)

Gender Non-Conformity and School Safety

Model District Policy on Transgender and Gender Nonconforming Students

Education Resources Page at Gender Spectrum

a reply to: Freija



You won't let it go, will you?

I'm specifically talking about cases like this;

Staff at an exclusive Sydney all-girls school have been instructed not to use the words ‘girl, ladies or women’ in an attempt to avoid discrimination of LGBTI students.

Source

This is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. I will not and cannot ever support such stupidity. This is not forward thinking, nor is it beneficial to anyone. If there is a F2M transgender student there, get them the hell out of that school and send them to an integrated one - an all girls school would be the worst place on earth for them to be.

Stopping the use of female pronouns is just about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.