From Nothing to Nothing

a reply to: Riffrafter

IT is still not part of science. Metaphysics is still not a science. Just as pseudoscience is not Adding a word to something does not make something so.

As for pedantry. I live by pedantry sometimes.

a reply to: Rapha

"The Devil horn".... so some unverifiable shared gnosis of yours then.

As a non abrahamic person of faith, I have no Devil to worry about. Just my own screwups

a reply to: SLAYER69

Your questions are legitimate and sure there is nothing wrong with people trying to feel out what can't be felt like what may be other dimensions. I have also thought about the possibilities that one day man will essentially become a creator god and develop a whole new life form. We are kind of trying to do that with AI.

But, as an atheist, personally I don't give much thought. Maybe a few minutes worth every year. To put it simply I am usually doing other things that preoccupy my time and thoughts.

How do we measure it? Its that simple. If you can not measure it, it can't be part of science.

a reply to: Noinden

Who came up with the definition of Science ? A human did. A human created Science and deemed what it was or wasn't and a bunch of other humans decided to follow it.



leolady

a reply to: SLAYER69

In your mind sure. Peoples uninformed minds are however not what science is based on. As someone who works in science. If there is no evidence for it, it has not happened. It really is "pictures or it did not happen". THIS is why gravitational waves being detected were massive for Physicists.

a reply to: leolady

Several humans, over a long period of time. Science is a philosophy which works.

Look I am not saying there are no deities (read my first post, I am spiritual. I'm a pre-Christian Gaelic Polytheist). What I am saying is that Science should keep out of theology and theology out of science. Just as I'd not want a poet to do my dental work.

originally posted by: Grimpachi

But, as an atheist, personally I don't give much thought. Maybe a few minutes worth every year. To put it simply I am usually doing other things that preoccupy my time and thoughts.

No offense.

Thought so

originally posted by: leolady

How do we measure it? Its that simple. If you can not measure it, it can't be part of science.

a reply to: Noinden

Who came up with the definition of Science ? A human did. A human created Science and deemed what it was or wasn't and a bunch of other humans decided to follow it.

leolady

"What do you think science is? There's nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. Which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?"

-Dr. Steven Novella

a reply to: GetHyped

I suppose Science is a philosophy...which was also termed/defined by humans.

leolady

Great replies everyone.

Both pro and Con...

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: Riffrafter

IT is still not part of science. Metaphysics is still not a science. Just as pseudoscience is not

Adding a word to something does not make something so.

As for pedantry. I live by pedantry sometimes.

True. However I wasn't trying to say that it was science, but rather I was re-framing the "argument" as it were.

Interesting discussion nonetheless...

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: SLAYER69
Now, Scientifically speaking, of course.

Since there is no after life, and "We" were just the result of some random cosmic genetic lottery. Are you comfortable with the concept that our consciousness came from nothing before we were born and that after our Deaths we will simply blink out and nothing more?

Yep, more than comfortable. I've thought I was going to die a few times in my life and just felt sad thinking I'd never see the people I love again.
*Edit to add* It is why I do my best to stay alive lol, I enjoy being alive and this perception of existence I have right now. What happens after is meh, because it won't involve the people I love right now, be I worm food or in some celestial heaven or whatever.

If so, Then, wouldn't you agree that our finite amount of time here could be said to be very special in that you are presently totally animated, aware of your surroundings, able to think about things beyond Earth and envision multi dimensions?

Yes, it is exactly why I do my best to be kind and make a difference in the only existence I know I'm perceiving.

You are after all a 'Higher Life form" with that regards. Do you imagine a time when we will be able (Given enough time) through various scientific advancements to eventually, one day not only live forever but also eventually come so far as to be a creative force and duplicate that which we ourselves were evolved from, complete with a set of genetic coding and spacial awareness and the medium within which to evolve?

If we were to eventually recreate that which we came from complete with all the supporting parameters wouldn't we then be 'The Creators" in a sense?

Yep that works for agnostic-atheist me.
Absolutely zero verifiable evidence to support such claims though so, as with gods, I don't believe your creator scenario to be fact. I do not believe it is not fact though, there is no way to verify it either way.

Children are atheist until parents or whoever indoctrinate them. It is learned behaviour.

After millennia of the best minds of humanity probing the questions of God and existence, the evidence is voluminous and totally 'in your face'.

Take a look around, nothing is likely or probable, everything exists in defiance of the absence of atheist ideas of how complexity and order could possibly arise from nothing.

There is no evidence at all that there is no God.

It is the atheist's case that lacks evidence or rationale.

You were joking? Right?
There is no evidence to support any claims of gods.
So how does lack of evidence that there are no gods support any claims that there are gods?

Lol, star for the most ridiculous argument in this thread so far.

I'm A US Marine, I'm used to going against the tide.

It's part of the job

a reply to: Riffrafter

Reframing is good, but it really is asking science to do something it is not meant to do. It would be like asking the pope to design pharmaceuticals

a reply to: leolady

Circular argument is circular Philosphy is also something made up by humans, and theology, and language. None the less they do the job they are meant too. I'd never want a theologin operating on me, designing my pharmaceuticals, etc.

a reply to: chr0naut

I was kind of in the morality viewpoint while contemplating my nothingness! I thought the natural selection was more of jumps but I see what you are saying.

So, DNA and gene coding means we live forever (just extending the graph of progress). Maybe death is not such a bad thing! As a Dr. Who plot line, what do you do with THAT power? Like, do you build a time machine to travel back in time to keep you from living forever? How much do you/will you remember? etc.

And that line of thought is kind of my point. You can assume the tech will get you there and that leaves you in a moral quandary each time. Do you live forever by genetic manipulation? Upload your conscience to a computer? Clone yourself? So toss out the question about "which tech" and wonder, "am I worthy of this?". Honesty can be a harsh mistress. That is the time you need to know yourself.

All ahead! Warp factor 2! Destination? The Omega Point!

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: SLAYER69

This is why I consider suicide an even FAR greater sin among atheists than Christians. At least Christians still live on to be punished for it in hell. If you are believer of atheism then you believe this is the only chance you'll get, thus you should make it want to count. Ending it early isn't "making it count."

What makes you say suicide is punishable in hell
You atheists and your twisted views on what you have decided to believe
I guess once a good catholic boy, maybe even an alter boy as well

What if we are the passive creators of reality? The double-slit experiment tells us that nothing is "set in stone" until someone or something observes it first. Nothing is "created" until we create (observe) it.

The Creator, in my opinion, is the passive universal Spirit that we are all a part of and it is what we ARE at the very core of ourselves, we are the consciousness of the universal Spirit and without us, the Spirit's conduit, nothing would exist that does exist.

If we are not observing something then it is in a perpetual state of probability until someone or something observes it. We are the many expressions of the ONE Creator, who is Spirit.

originally posted by: SLAYER69
Since there is no after life, and "We" were just the result of some random cosmic genetic lottery. Are you comfortable with the concept that our consciousness came from nothing before we were born and that after our Deaths we will simply blink out and nothing more?

Despite being an atheist, I actually believe that what can be described as Ghosts actually exist. Furthermore, I believe that Reincarnation seems like it could be a possibility.

You forget that the only thing that connects an atheist to another is a lack of belief in gods.

That being said, I have no idea if everyone, or just a select few become ghosts, and how much consciousness there is if someone were to become one after dying. So I honestly have no answer to this.

originally posted by: SLAYER69
If so, Then, wouldn't you agree that our finite amount of time here could be said to be very special in that you are presently totally animated, aware of your surroundings, able to think about things beyond Earth and envision multi dimensions?

Yes, I would agree to this. It could be our only shot, which makes every instant that more important and beautiful.

originally posted by: SLAYER69
You are after all a 'Higher Life form" with that regards.

I don't feel higher than any other life form actually. There are many creatures on earth that are intelligent and have shown to have consciousness. I wouldn't put us on a pedestal for being any 'better' though.

originally posted by: SLAYER69
Do you imagine a time when we will be able (Given enough time) through various scientific advancements to eventually, one day not only live forever but also eventually come so far as to be a creative force and duplicate that which we ourselves were evolved from, complete with a set of genetic coding and spacial awareness and the medium within which to evolve?

Yes, I've put a lot of time researching this subject. The Singularity is fascinating. And the thought of creating an abiogenesis of our own is exceptionally tantalizing.

originally posted by: SLAYER69
If we were to eventually recreate that which we came from complete with all the supporting parameters wouldn't we then be 'The Creators" in a sense?

Yup.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

originally posted by: SLAYER69
I'm a person of Faith. No, I don't believe everything written in the Good Book, lock stock and barrel literally. But, I'm a man of Faith in that as far as I'm concerned there is a supreme being, entity, Great spirit, Master builder...etc etc etc. However one cares to relate or describe it. No, I have chosen a very long time ago never to push my beliefs on others. I'm open to discuss but never attempt to force my beliefs down others throats. I respect those who believe otherwise.

That's fine. But there are major differences between "A Supreme Being" a "Great Spirit" a "Universal Force" etc. Which is a different topic. But I'm just saying. Belief in a God Being isn't the same as belief in some eternal Energy or something like that.

Now, Scientifically speaking, of course.

Since there is no after life, and "We" were just the result of some random cosmic genetic lottery. Are you comfortable with the concept that our consciousness came from nothing before we were born and that after our Deaths we will simply blink out and nothing more?

Completely comfortable with that idea. Definitely.

If so, Then, wouldn't you agree that our finite amount of time here could be said to be very special in that you are presently totally animated, aware of your surroundings, able to think about things beyond Earth and envision multi dimensions?

Without a doubt, yes.

You are after all a 'Higher Life form" with that regards. Do you imagine a time when we will be able (Given enough time) through various scientific advancements to eventually, one day not only live forever but also eventually come so far as to be a creative force and duplicate that which we ourselves were evolved from, complete with a set of genetic coding and spacial awareness and the medium within which to evolve?

Not sure but it is certainly a possibility. More and more likely so it would seem. We are quite the clever little monkeys.

If we were to eventually recreate that which we came from complete with all the supporting parameters wouldn't we then be 'The Creators" in a sense?

Sure. I think that's exactly what it would mean if I get where you're going with this idea.

However, I wouldn't consider that to be the same thing as what God is often said to be from certain Religions.

At the same time, it would in fact make much more sense if those Religions talked of God in that way though rather than how they define God currently.