DOJ publishes video offering law enforcement officers guidance on dealing with Transgender people

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

First of all shock factor and misunderstandings towards Trans individuals for starters. For example as mentioned in the video LE officers often stereotype Trans women as sex workers or may jump to a conclusion that the individual is a fugitive in disguise. 

But what if that is what is indeed going on? Should LEO's disregard potential crimes so as not to offend?

I'm all for equality, but this sounds like the opposite.

To be honest I think that fixing police relations with the black community is of a higher importance simply because the way blacks are disproportionately treated by cops. I'm not black though so I can not really speak on that other than acknowledging that it is indeed a real thing.

Cops need to work on their relationship with citizens. People are people are people. You can't segregate a part of the population to receive preferential treatment.

What you suggest is called profiling and it is indeed against "official" protocol yet still practiced, just ask a black person.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

No, what you are suggesting is profiling. Just taking it in a different direction.

You are saying cops should hold back because of how someone looks, right?

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

No, what you are suggesting is profiling. Just taking it in a different direction.

You are saying cops should hold back because of how someone looks, right?

Never said that at all actually, what I am saying is that I think it is good that law enforcement agencies are taking steps to interact with the Trans community while keeping individual's humanity and dignity intact. You seem to think that preferring someone to address me as ma'am instead of sir is somehow asking for special treatment. In reality I simply do not wish to be presumed to be a prostitute or fugitive simply for who I am as a member of a highly misunderstood and abused demographic. Really not a whole lot to ask there so I don't really see what your gripe is to be honest.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

what I am saying is that I think it is good that law enforcement agencies are taking steps to interact with the Trans community while keeping individual's humanity and dignity intact.

Implying that everyone doesn't sacrifice a little dignity while interacting with the police.

This is what I'm talking about. You are not special. Your problems are not unique.

You seem to think that preferring someone to address me as ma'am instead of sir is somehow asking for special treatment. 

You can prefer all you want. I'd prefer to be addressed as sir onion. Ain't gonna happen.

In reality I simply do not wish to be presumed to be a prostitute or fugitive simply for who I am as a member of a highly misunderstood and abused demographic. 

I've been presumed to be many things that I am not by police. It's what they do. But sure, go ahead and believe your problems are somehow different, because of your minority status.

Ignore the fact that this is a problem for everyone.

Implying that everyone doesn't sacrifice a little dignity while interacting with the police.

This is what I'm talking about. You are not special. Your problems are not unique.

I don't know about that but maybe I am special because just about every time I've had to deal with law enforcement they have been pretty courteous and professional. One time they washed my mud covered hoodie before releasing me. On another occasion they gave me some coca-cola and pizza albeit they did take my pants and left me in a cold cell with no pants. However that was protocol because they could not remove my drawstring so therefore technically for my own safety. The best one though was when the officer who illegally obtained a warrant against me was force retired, I still smile about that one.

So again I don't know what kind of interactions you have had with police but they are usually pretty decent to me at least.

You can prefer all you want. I'd prefer to be addressed as sir onion. Ain't gonna happen.

If you asked me nicely to call you Sir Onion and doing otherwise visibly and obviously caused you distress then I would oblige, I call that courtesy and whether or not anyone chooses to show another human being courtesy or not is entirely up to them and indicative of their character.

I've been presumed to be many things that I am not by police. It's what they do. But sure, go ahead and believe your problems are somehow different, because of your minority status.

You sound angry here and almost as if your jealous over some perceived sense of special treatment I'm asking for. I don't ask for special or preferential treatment just professionalism, courtesy and dignity. Back to what you said earlier about losing your dignity in dealing with LE perhaps that was a result of how you were behaving in the moment and not who you are as a person. I wish to be treated that way as well which usually ends up in my favor so maybe you should consider that if and ever you encounter LE again.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

I don't know about that but maybe I am special because just about every time I've had to deal with law enforcement they have been pretty courteous and professional. One time they washed my mud covered hoodie before releasing me. On another occasion they gave me some coca-cola and pizza albeit they did take my pants and left me in a cold cell with no pants. However that was protocol because they could not remove my drawstring so therefore technically for my own safety. The best one though was when the officer who illegally obtained a warrant against me was force retired, I still smile about that one. 

So again I don't know what kind of interactions you have had with police but they are usually pretty decent to me at least.

I'm confused now. Weren't you just making the case that the trans community is somehow disproportionately treated unfairly? (Am I wrong in assuming you are trans?)

Your own experiences seem to disprove that.

I'm kinda tired of muddying up the board with our back and forth, because I can see this is getting us both nowhere.

Feel free to PM me if you want to continue this conversation.

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

I don't know about that but maybe I am special because just about every time I've had to deal with law enforcement they have been pretty courteous and professional. One time they washed my mud covered hoodie before releasing me. On another occasion they gave me some coca-cola and pizza albeit they did take my pants and left me in a cold cell with no pants. However that was protocol because they could not remove my drawstring so therefore technically for my own safety. The best one though was when the officer who illegally obtained a warrant against me was force retired, I still smile about that one. 
So again I don't know what kind of interactions you have had with police but they are usually pretty decent to me at least.

I'm confused now. Weren't you just making the case that the trans community is somehow disproportionately treated unfairly? (Am I wrong in assuming you are trans?)

Your own experiences seem to disprove that.

I'm kinda tired of muddying up the board with our back and forth, because I can see this is getting us both nowhere.

Feel free to PM me if you want to continue this conversation.

Me and my experiences are not representative of the entire Trans community, I am the exception not the rule. I fail to see how that should diminish my desire to spread awareness for others. Should I not do that? Should i instead gloat and boast about my own experiences and act like everything is just all honky dory? I don't think so, not everyone has access to the best attorneys or bail money like I do. There are plenty who still get harassed and accosted just for walking Trans. My only point in my OP is that I think it is good that the highest law enforcement office in the country has taken initiative and set forth basic guidelines in an attempt to improve police relations with my brethren.

You know what I give up though, I can see from the starring patterns in this thread that my message has again fallen on deaf and compassionless ears. I get it I, we are freaks and monsters deserving of every bit of contempt thrown at us, we are not ostracized and marginalized at all one bit I guess and everything is fine how it is. You know my life isn't perfect by a long shot but it is pretty freaking awesome all things considered. Not everyone has this experience though and I guess I am wrong for trying to share that, at least that is the impression I get from the reactions I've read here. I guess people just don't care and that makes me sad but I have not the words to make it matter apparently so I give up. Thank you for showing me my folly. Maybe I'll just go post another cute kitten video and get a million like for it because you know that's what's really important.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

My only point in my OP is that I think it is good that the highest law enforcement office in the country has taken initiative and set forth basic guidelines in an attempt to improve police relations with my brethren.

All law enforcement officers should treat pretty much everyone they meet with respect and courtesy. And of course that includes transgenders. It's a crying shame that a video such as this should be necessary or appropriate.

You know what I give up though, I can see from the starring patterns in this thread that my message has again fallen on deaf and compassionless ears.

I don't think it's as easy as that. As the transgender issue (and "solutions") has exploded as a national issue, there have been too many toes stepped on -- on both sides. Just one example, for every transgender person who feels "more comfortable" using the bathroom of their choice, there are even more people who are made "more UNcomfortable" as they do so. It is also a practice ripe for abuse, as you must also know. No, I don't think for a minute that every transgender person is a pervert wanting to snap pics or ogle or even rape unsuspecting women and females... but even one is a danger. And that doesn't even include those sick perverted puppies who are not transgender, but will exploit such a situation for their own demented proclivities.

Unfortunately, the entire situation has been created and presented and forced on us in a way that guaranteed people would be pitted against each other. Compassion, respect and courtesy goes both ways.

a reply to: Boadicea

I don't think it's as easy as that. As the transgender issue (and "solutions") has exploded as a national issue, there have been too many toes stepped on -- on both sides. Just one example, for every transgender person who feels "more comfortable" using the bathroom of their choice, there are even more people who are made "more UNcomfortable" as they do so. It is also a practice ripe for abuse, as you must also know. No, I don't think for a minute that every transgender person is a pervert wanting to snap pics or ogle or even rape unsuspecting women and females... but even one is a danger. And that doesn't even include those sick perverted puppies who are not transgender, but will exploit such a situation for their own demented proclivities.

I see this particular issue from a statistical standpoint however I do admit that I am obviously biased here. Regardless of that the truth of the matter breaks down to this: Side A, fearful parents would by default put Side B Trans people (especially women) in more jeopardy than they themselves would be subjected too as infallibly indicated by factual statistics. Sure there have been a few isolated incidents here or there but all ended before any real harm was done and because of vigilant bystanders. This point has been made and ignored to death now that in 18 states and hundreds of cities where Trans bathroom rights are protected there has been no spike or surge in bathroom related assaults. The numbers are there, speak for themselves and can not be disputed.

Now lets consider the fact that there are way more concerned parents and their children than there are Trans people trying to use the bathroom, this is always the point that is made in contention. Now I won't post those numbers as that point has been beaten to death by some here already but I will post some other statistics that paint a horrendous picture for you.

Sexual violence has been found to be even higher in some subpopulations within the transgender community, including transgender youth, transgender people of color, individuals living with disabilities, homeless individuals, and those who are involved in the sex trade. For example, the 2011 Injustice at Every Turn: A Report of the National Transgender Discrimination Survey found that 12 percent of transgender youth report being sexually assaulted in K–12 settings by peers or educational staff; 13 percent of African-American transgender people surveyed were sexually assaulted in the workplace; and 22 percent of homeless transgender individuals were assaulted while staying in shelters.3

Sexual assaults can be perpetrated by any individual; however, it is particularly startling when professionals who are in "helping" roles abuse their power and sexually assault individuals they are supposed to be serving. Fifteen percent of transgender individuals report being sexually assaulted while in police custody or jail, which more than doubles (32 percent) for African-American transgender people. Five to nine percent of transgender survivors were sexually assaulted by police officers.4 Another 10 percent were assaulted by health care professionals.5

Link to site

Of most importance and relevance to this thread I would like you to take note of the second set of statistics. Trans women are not even safe in the custody of supposed professionals that are supposed to be looking out for fellow citizens.
Back to the bathroom argument though I will say this...the general consensus that I get is a mentality that amounts to "well there are less of you than there are us so you are less important" and worst of all DESPITE statistics that do not justify a legitimate concern for women or children in bathrooms, the numbers just aren't there. This mindset is indicative of the results of fear based emotional rationale from parents. If you ask any parent what lengths they would go to to protect their own children I'm sure murder among other things would make that list. Point being that parents are hardwired to disregard the safety of others when it is in "perceived contention" with the safety of their children and most parents will not deny this. These parents would seek to place Trans women in real danger and all because they place a higher value on their children which is natural and ok. However when that fear and concern is based on no hard evidence but only emotionally based rationale it only puts those that are already at more risk than the average populace in more danger.

Like I said "there are less of us so we must be less important" I don't know if my mother would agree with that. See we are sons and daughters too and there are people that have very good reason to be concerned for our safety and well being. Some of us are lucky enough to have but some have been abandoned by everyone they thought loved them. These people are in way more danger than a kid form a good home with loving parents capable of chaperoning to the bathroom.

a reply to: Orionx2

Like I already said...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: dreamingawake

Does that have to do with being nice? Or is a safety concern?

Cops act on behalf of their own safety. Its a given, unspoken, unwritten, 'rule of thumb'. Protect yourself first, all other concerns (like public safety) are secondary.

Thats why they have magazine capacity of 17 rounds and hose down their 'suspects' whether they are standing still, running or moving in a car.

Public safety, whats that?

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

Wow. You just proved my point. Thank you... I think.

Where in all of that is any compassion, respect or courtesy for anyone except you and your "brethren?" No where. And yet you accuse others of being "deaf and compassionless" for not putting aside the safety and wellbeing of women and children for the momentary "comfort" of a few. So, apparently, because there less of them than you (statistics donchaknow!), they are obviously less important.

Do you want to tell these victims that their trauma is statistically insignificant because they are "less" than you? Could you? Could you actually look these victims in the eye and tell them that their pain and trauma is statistically insignificant??? That your comfort is more important than their safety because they are "less" than you so therefore "less important"???

Police: Man attacks 6-year-old girl in womens bathroom
Shocking case proves 'Toby's Law' is flawed
Transgender, women’s rights advocate and prominent Twitter engineer charged with rape
Sexual predator jailed after claiming to be ‘transgender’ to assault women in shelter
“Man in Barbie Costume Attacks Woman in Bathroom”
Man who choked 8-year-old girl in women’s restroom stokes alarm over transgender access

The really pathetic thing is that this is just a handful of the countless instances of sexual violence and abuse by transgender persons against women and children. But they're all statistically insignificant to you, right? Simply because they are "less" in numbers so they are also "less important."

Actually, that's not the most pathetic thing about this... the most pathetic part is that the transgender community is being used and exploited to push a political agenda with no regard for their true needs, including the environmental and biological issues causing their dis-ease. You see I've done my homework, I have statistics and studies too, and not just what suited my confirmation bias.

It IS something in the water... And it hurts everyone
Autogynephilia: The Elephant in the Transgender Bathroom

There is a better way, including a middle ground that serves everyone's best interests and greater good. But the president's directive is not it, and thankfully that directive has been blocked nationwide by a federal judge:

U.S. Judge Grants Nationwide Injunction Blocking White House Transgender Policy

And even Target has found a better way:

Target Refuses To Flush, But Does Remodel Bathroom Policy

We can do better. It does not have to be an either/or situation.

a reply to: Boadicea

I see that you are staunch in your beliefs as misguided as they may be so I decline to participate any further. I feel as if any further communication with you would be a waste of my time and I'm not here to do that. I can smell your disdain and contempt for me dripping off of your words. I assure you it is mutual after the way you just spoke to me but I'm not letting it control my emotions, I refuse to give you that power. I spoke factually about statistics and with a tone of indifference whilst you speak to me full of anger and passion which quite clearly clouds your thought process and judgment. Good day Sir or Madam whichever it is.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

I feel no disdain nor contempt for you. In fact, I gave you so much credit -- based on your passion and concern for your brethren -- that I figured if you understood that you were dismissing the victims of violent crimes the same way that you felt you have been dismissed, using your own words, that you would and could expand your perspective and your concern for others. I wanted to think that you could and would consider the many different sides and angles to this whole issue, and that not all transgender persons are created equal and there are no one-size-fits-all solutions. I honestly believed that if you considered having to look those victims in the eye, that you would feel their pain as well. And I mostly hoped that if you could look at the situation in terms of general principles that apply to everyone, "rights" as opposed to "privileges" granted by government, that you would want to find solutions that work for everyone without hurting anyone.

Apparently I was wrong. My mistake. Okay.

a reply to: Boadicea

I honestly believed that if you considered having to look those victims in the eye, that you would feel their pain as well

I have enough pain in my heart for 10 lifetimes so yes I could look them in the eyes and feel nothing, the same way their parents look at me...like I'm nothing. We are separated by oceans of bias and concern for ours and only ours it seems. You accuse me of only caring about my demographic but what about you? You would sacrifice my safety so that you can satisfy your irrational paranoia and protect yours. At the end of it all though your opinion is inconsequential to me because my right to use the bathroom I identify as is allowed where I live and there is nothing you can do about it so I win I guess.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

I have enough pain in my heart for 10 lifetimes so yes I could look them in the eyes and feel nothing...

That hurts my heart for many reasons. I am in shock that you would even admit that, but it explains (confirms) much -- so thank you... I guess. It does your cause absolutely no good to express such sociopathy in such terms.

...the same way their parents look at me...like I'm nothing.

The same way SOME PARENTS would look at you. Not all. It's your own hate that gets in your way and assumes the worst about others.

We are separated by oceans of bias and concern for ours and only ours it seems.

You are the only one who has expressed such bias and concern for yours and only yours in fact and in deed.

You accuse me of only caring about my demographic but what about you? You would sacrifice my safety so that you can satisfy your irrational paranoia and protect yours.

First, I did not accuse you of "only caring about" your demographic; I pointed that that you expressed no concern for other demographics. And although you had every opportunity to do so, instead you proudly proclaimed that you have no concern for anyone else.

Second, no, I would not sacrifice anyone's safety for any reason, and I have clearly expressed as much throughout this conversation. I have as much concern for transgender persons as anyone and everyone else. I specifically stated that it's not an either/or situation.

Third, it's not "paranoia" when it's true... then it's a threat.

At the end of it all though your opinion is inconsequential to me because my right to use the bathroom I identify as is allowed where I live and there is nothing you can do about it so I win I guess.

Congrats on your pyrrhic victory. You don't win. No one wins. We all lose.

a reply to: Boadicea

The same way SOME PARENTS would look at you. Not all. It's your own hate that gets in your way and assumes the worst about others.

You misunderstand me there is no hatred for you, just cold indifference. I have come to realize that the world is a cruel place where bad things happen to good people all the time. It's just the way things are and no amount of prayers or hail mary's will change that. What I can not tolerate is when someone would seek to put me in a situation that is more dangerous for me as proven by factual statistics then allowing me share space with them because they fear the threat of a statistically improbable incident. You really can't understand this can you? You are blinded by your emotions, bias and paranoid fear. A Trans woman in a mens bathroom is much more likely to be assaulted than you are to be by a poser in the women's. It is backed by numbers yet you harp on to your own tune.

Sociopathy...pfft I have plenty of warmth and positive emotions for those that I like, you are not one of these people. You are a stranger to me so I have absolutely no emotional investment in you so why should I care when you clearly do not care about my well being.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

What I can not tolerate is when someone would seek to put me in a situation that is more dangerous for me as proven by factual statistics then allowing me share space with them because they fear the threat of a statistically improbable incident.

But you would put another in a dangerous situation.... and then (by your own admission) have absolutely no compassion for a child that was brutally raped as a result.

And we both know that if we were to be completely honest, transgender people face the greatest threat to life and limb from other transgenders, and the greatest threat to women is from persons with testicles and testosterone regardless of what gender they proclaim themselves, as the statistics also bear out. So just letting all those violent bullies into the ladies' room with you doesn't protect you, it simply increases their potential victims. Nor does it protect the transgender males who would use the mens room. But you don't care.

Based on your own words, I don't believe this is really about fears for your safety at all. It's just a handy "gotcha" that suits your purposes. You've already shown your true colors. And this is exactly why the transgender community is viewed with the fear and distrust of the general population... because there is absolutely no care or concern for them in any way, shape or form.

I woon't judge everyone by your standards though.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

Sociopathy...pfft I have plenty of warmth and positive emotions for those that I like, you are not one of these people. You are a stranger to me so I have absolutely no emotional investment in you so why should I care when you clearly do not care about my well being.

I care very much for your well being. Just because I won't throw everyone else to the lions for your own self-aggrandizement doesn't mean that I don't care about your safety and wellbeing. Nor do I need to emotionally invested in you (or anyone) to care about their safety and wellbeing.

You are the one who expressly stated your lack of conern for others. You are the one who expressly stated that you could look a rape victim in the eye and have absolutely no compassion for them.

Compassion and empathy are not about having a personal investment in someone. It's easy to care about the people you care about.

I really strongly suggest you stop here and now. You're just hurting your cause. If it makes it easier, I am done. We have both said what we had to say. Our words will stand on their own merit and others will come to their own conclusions.

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

You got me all wrong sweetie, I have the same amount of compassion for all people regardless of gender, race, orientation or AGE. I hate to break it to you but your child's life is no more valuable than my life. After all I'm someone's child too. You have accused me of all sort of treachery because you misunderstand me and you expect me to show you a pleasant face? Really? We are way beyond that now and you show your true colors and how you just don't trust or care for Trans people. I'm not a sheep and dont lose my mind and sense of logic to irrational emotions at the mere mention of a child being hurt. Have you ever been to a third world country? Let me tell you all life is cheap over there.