How close are you in believing ?

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: scojak

But that's just it, the complexity of DNA precludes that.

"You would be more likely to assemble a fully functioning and flying jumbo jet by passing a hurricane through a junk yard than you would be to assemble the DNA molecule by chance. In any kind of primeval soup in 5 or 600 million years, it’s just not possible" -Francis Crick

Too bad Crick didn't say that. That quote is from Astronomer Fred Hoyle and as context is key, was meant to promote Panspermia over Abiogenesis.

Since we're quoting from Dr. Hoyle, he also said

The creationist is a sham religious person who, curiously, has no true sense of religion. In the language of religion, it is the facts we observe in the world around us that must be seen to constitute the words of God. Documents, whether the Bible, Qur'an or those writings that held such force for Velikovsky, are only the words of men. To prefer the words of men to those of God is what one can mean by blasphemy. This, we think, is the instinctive point of view of most scientists who, curiously again, have a deeper understanding of the real nature of religion than have the many who delude themselves into a frenzied belief in the words, often the meaningless words, of men. Indeed, the lesser the meaning, the greater the frenzy, in something like inverse proportion. Our Place in the Cosmos (1993), p. 14

For good measure, here's an actual quote from Crick-

"Christianity may be OK between consenting adults in private but should not be taught to young children?"

Thanks, nice to have manners. Cheers-

I am not a religious person, I've had too hard of a life.

And if common superstitions are proved wrong via documented history....

Such as the whole of "Christianity" is wrong because "Jesus Christ" never existed. The same for "Satan". That's a Catholic invention.

I have an actual Jew here with me right now, I got the low down on all of these things and was pointed at what books to read. Just Google "Jesus Christ never existed" and start reading.

And supposedly this too is why Jews are persecuted. No other reason but that they know actual history. Friend says that this is why the Vatican won't let anyone see what they have. And are quick to strong arm their way to obtaining any "biblical" artifacts found. Because they know what's in there. And it proves them wrong. I know this to be true myself because I like to read about Ancient History too, and many authors will say they have a devil of a time with getting to see any actual artifacts. I'm talking about serious research here, the Vatican won't even let top Phds, Professors examine most things.

My friend wants me to put here, because she went to school at the University of Chicago, that they have the "Oriental Institute" there and this is some of the best Near East research in the world. For those interested in history, you can look at their website and also look for books published by researchers there or via the U Chi press (many can be found in your local library.)

This would boil down to conflicting accounts of recorded history. But I think that if they're flat out lying about that (documented), they're lying about everything.

This is an interesting thing I stumbled upon online the other day: The "Dogon Tribe". These are people in Africa who think that "Lizard People" "came from space" to bring them civilization. If I remember correctly they are somewhere in w. Africa but are thought to have come from somewhere around Egypt.

So think of this: Forget the "Space Beings" aspect, just consider the "Lizard", "Snake", aspect of their "Totem Animal".
And then came the Jews and Christians who call "the snake" "evil".

Perhaps this means nothing more than tribal warfare with mascots as proxies?

In Our Land here, one day people will talk of wars between bears and birds! It REALLY IS happening now! (Check your TV schedule for the next Cubs vs. Cards game).

a reply to: SLAYER69

It is known with facts that majority of those that follow religion and state it as fact, have some of the lowest IQ's in society. Mull over that a little.

It is clear we are not part of any grand design, rather a symmetrical and directed mess that creates beautiful end results. Kind of like creating a spirograph, start with a simple non important circle and follow it enough times you create amazing patterns. Repeat that in humans, animals, plants and DNA and you have our ordered mess.

To those that disbelieve in science, well its not a belief. Its something that just is, because it can proved. Cars, drive, planes, fly and computers compute because of science. Yes, not all answered are answered yet but would you say that to an architect building his house, its being built you can see that.

The universe is full of life, as if there is no other life then we should not exist either. We are part of the same mixture, no different.

In time, (if not already) we will make contact. When that day comes, it will be nothing of a surprise but just a happy negotiation of, WELCOME TO THE CLUB.

originally posted by: Bone75
For me it wasn't the complexity of DNA or the overwhelming, breathtaking beauty in this world, or the miracles I've witnessed with my own eyes.

No, for me the leap from doubt to belief came from the Atheists themselves. The desperate ridicule and hate flowing out of their fingertips and onto my screen convinced me that demons are real.

And if demons are real, then so is God.

Yup. Ironically it was the realization of absolute evil that made me come to the knowledge of Truth, Love and Goodness (God). Prior to this, I was a know-it-all chauvinistic atheist who agreed with anything that disagreed with a higher purpose in life - I know how these atheists work, and I see my old self in them and its a shame because I know only they can pull themselves out of their own hopelessness.

a reply to: SLAYER69

Just thought id add if it hasnt already but evolution has been debunked over and over by REAL scientists.

Not to mention its been proven that dinosour bones are less than a hundred thousand years old, they still contain flesh and carbon 14. Now carbon 14 wouldnt exist in the bones of dinosours that were here a million (never mind 66 million) years ago.

Oh and for the naysayers that say its contaminated then why does EVERY dinosour bone have flesh and carbon 14?? And to make things worse evolution beleivers will keep denying the truth even after real scientific proof has been presented. Yet their is not a shred of evidence for evolution and more so not even a SINGLE bone in a museum to support it.

I think its the evolution beleivers that need to get an education and use real world thinking and evidence, its out their and its public, though in america more than any other country your government love brainwashing you. I think its sick that kids are tought evolution as fact.

As for intelligent design, well nothing happens by accident. Just like nothing comes from nothing (big bang). Theirs enough scientists that would love to prove intelligent design but fear their jobs and being ridiculed by the elite. Yeah nuff said......

a reply to: SLAYER69

From my point of view reality is energy manifesting in different forms depending (particles) on the under laying probability field. With the right manipulation you should theoretically be able to create right probability field to make the particles arrange themselves to form DNA. So unseen manipulation is possible.

Information exchange can happen between 2 separate beings disconnected from each other thru entanglement. Chemical information in one cell -> unconscious mind -> conscious mind. Sometimes the conscious mind cannot make sense of the information due to subjective concepts or information get miss interpreted to become something else.

originally posted by: BlackProject
a reply to: SLAYER69

It is clear we are not part of any grand design

Then why are you even posting anything? Hypothetically, If this is all meaningless why would it even matter what people thought? Therefore, there is no point in you even voicing this opinion - especially if it is not true. If you are right, and life is meaningless - then it doesn't matter what people think anyway, so all opinions are then erroneous.

If, on the contrary, we ARE part of a grand design, and your ignorance leads people away from higher truth, then you are being a great detriment to any people you may influence with your senseless pessimism.

originally posted by: BlackProject
a reply to: SLAYER69

It is known with facts that majority of those that follow religion and state it as fact, have some of the lowest IQ's in society. Mull over that a little.

It is clear we are not part of any grand design, rather a symmetrical and directed mess that creates beautiful end results. Kind of like creating a spirograph, start with a simple non important circle and follow it enough times you create amazing patterns. Repeat that in humans, animals, plants and DNA and you have our ordered mess.

To those that disbelieve in science, well its not a belief. Its something that just is, because it can proved. Cars, drive, planes, fly and computers compute because of science. Yes, not all answered are answered yet but would you say that to an architect building his house, its being built you can see that.

The universe is full of life, as if there is no other life then we should not exist either. We are part of the same mixture, no different.

In time, (if not already) we will make contact. When that day comes, it will be nothing of a surprise but just a happy negotiation of, WELCOME TO THE CLUB.

That line of thought is not absolute in answering the ultimate question though. It leaves the question where did that all come from? I believe in Aliens/Angels/Demons because I have enough faith after combining the entirety of all I have studied. I'm positive I don't have it all figured out so I'm still learning, exploring everything that can't be disproven with facts. There could be some God or God's overseeing exactly what you describe. Why not? Your belief is your belief because it requires faith. Awesome thread, but nothing new will be PROVEN here.

I believe in a creator. But know that we do not understand it, him or her. I'm certain that it's not the God of the Bible...it is not the god of the Jews or Islam. I think this God creates using the processes that we see in and with Science--evolution etc. I'm certain there is an afterlife...and I'm beginning to think it might be something related to reincarnation. I could be wrong, but I'm certain of one thing, I do believe in science and scientific discovery and I know that man has used religion as a way to control us for thousands upon thousands of years. In Europe and early America, We were controlled for centuries by the bible-especially when most of us could not read. Why do we think that the bible is the unerring word of god. Why does Genesis copy earlier religions?

I've read a lot of Atheist books Including the God Delusion and watched a lot of Atheist videos, I read a lot of everything actually. But it hasn't stopped me from believing in an afterlife or a higher power...a God.

Why can't we have both...a belief in a Creation by God and a belief in Science and natural processes?

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: scojak

But that's just it, the complexity of DNA precludes that.

"You would be more likely to assemble a fully functioning and flying jumbo jet by passing a hurricane through a junk yard than you would be to assemble the DNA molecule by chance. In any kind of primeval soup in 5 or 600 million years, it’s just not possible" -Francis Crick

Too bad Crick didn't say that. That quote is from Astronomer Fred Hoyle and as context is key, was meant to promote Panspermia over Abiogenesis.

Since we're quoting from Dr. Hoyle, he also said

The creationist is a sham religious person who, curiously, has no true sense of religion. In the language of religion, it is the facts we observe in the world around us that must be seen to constitute the words of God. Documents, whether the Bible, Qur'an or those writings that held such force for Velikovsky, are only the words of men. To prefer the words of men to those of God is what one can mean by blasphemy. This, we think, is the instinctive point of view of most scientists who, curiously again, have a deeper understanding of the real nature of religion than have the many who delude themselves into a frenzied belief in the words, often the meaningless words, of men. Indeed, the lesser the meaning, the greater the frenzy, in something like inverse proportion. Our Place in the Cosmos (1993), p. 14

For good measure, here's an actual quote from Crick-

"Christianity may be OK between consenting adults in private but should not be taught to young children?"

Thanks, nice to have manners. Cheers-

I'm sorry that you feel my manners aren't to your liking but from my perspective, it's insulting and terribly frustrating, when people quote mine to support their position and can't be bothered to know whether or not the quote is even legitimate. The same quotes are misattributed time and time again to support the same arguments. You never would have bothered to check the veracity of your attribution had others not pointed out the error to you. So if I appeared rude to you, my apologies, but I was biting my tongue and offering a much more pleasant reply than my initial reaction would have lent itself to after seeing the same quote misattributed to the same individual with the same appeal to authority for the umpteenth time.

bump

watching now

originally posted by: BlackProject
a reply to: SLAYER69

It is known with facts that majority of those that follow religion and state it as fact, have some of the lowest IQ's in society. Mull over that a little.

Citations needed.

It is clear we are not part of any grand design, rather a symmetrical and directed mess that creates beautiful end results.

It appears that way, absolutely--but that is not certain, and it is not exactly "clear". The evidence currently does not suggest that we are a part of any kind of grand design (nor is a designer necessary in this universe), but to say that it is "clear" is, in fact, quite ignorant.

Kind of like creating a spirograph, start with a simple non important circle and follow it enough times you create amazing patterns. Repeat that in humans, animals, plants and DNA and you have our ordered mess.

That is a fascinating analogy and accurate, to a certain degree...

To those that disbelieve in science, well its not a belief. Its something that just is, because it can proved.

Nothing in science is proved. Ever. Be careful in using "proof", "proven", "proved", etc... in the context of science in the future.

The universe is full of life,

That is neither true nor false--we simply do not know. Sure, scientists have posited that the likelihood of life elsewhere in the universe is quite large, however research in science has neither confirmed nor denied that sentiment.

as if there is no other life then we should not exist either.

I don't understand the logic behind this. Why shouldn't we exist if there was no other life elsewhere in the universe? What if we are just a freak accident?

We are part of the same mixture, no different.

What do you mean by "mixture"?

In time, (if not already) we will make contact.

You don't know that, though. For all we know Earth could be the only planet capable of life in the universe. There may be only one other planet in this vast universe who supports life (and it may not even be intelligent life). We just don't know, and to say that we're going to make contact as if it's a certainty is quite a stretch. I would like to hope that there are other intelligent species in this universe other than our own species!

When that day comes, it will be nothing of a surprise but just a happy negotiation of, WELCOME TO THE CLUB.

You're making the assumption that such a day will come by saying "when it comes", not "if it comes". Again, we just don't know if it will happen... and if it does happen then the vast majority of scientists, I think, will be quite surprised considering there is no evidence to suggest that there is/is not life elsewhere in the universe.

originally posted by: ParanoidCovKid
a reply to: SLAYER69

Just thought id add if it hasnt already but evolution has been debunked over and over by REAL scientists.

Who are these REAL scientists and what makes every other scientist a fake scientist other than their ability to understand the evidence showing that evolution is a real biological process?

Not to mention its been proven that dinosour bones are less than a hundred thousand years old, they still contain flesh and carbon 14. Now carbon 14 wouldnt exist in the bones of dinosours that were here a million (never mind 66 million) years ago.

Why am I unable to find a single peer reviewed paper supporting this? And why is every single "supporting citiation" a web link to AIG, ICR or an associated religious site? Why, if the science is so overwhelming as you claim, are there no scientific sources supporting this?

Oh and for the naysayers that say its contaminated then why does EVERY dinosour bone have flesh and carbon 14?? And to make things worse evolution beleivers will keep denying the truth even after real scientific proof has been presented.

EVERY fossil(they're fossils not bones) has flesh and 14C? Please provide citations for this.

Yet their is not a shred of evidence for evolution and more so not even a SINGLE bone in a museum to support it.

We must be going to very different museums

I think its the evolution beleivers that need to get an education and use real world thinking and evidence, its out their and its public, though in america more than any other country your government love brainwashing you. I think its sick that kids are tought evolution as fact.

Unfortunately for you, all of that real world evidence that is out there and in the public actually supports MES. There is none supporting ID. Please provide appropriate citations that support your position though if you believe the evidence exists.

As for intelligent design, well nothing happens by accident. Just like nothing comes from nothing (big bang). Theirs enough scientists that would love to prove intelligent design but fear their jobs and being ridiculed by the elite. Yeah nuff said......

Big Bang isn't "something from nothing". But then again you would have to actually research the topic to know that. It's awfully convenient to claim that there are enough scientists who would love to prove ID but are afraid of losing their jobs. Why don't they just get jobs with AIG or ICR? They're always thrilled to pay the salaries of anyone willing to promote their ideals.

originally posted by: peter vlar

Who are these REAL scientists and what makes every other scientist a fake scientist other than their ability to understand the evidence showing that evolution is a real biological process?

Real scientists follow the empirical evidence regardless of their old bias.

Why am I unable to find a single peer reviewed paper supporting this? And why is every single "supporting citiation" a web link to AIG, ICR or an associated religious site? Why, if the science is so overwhelming as you claim, are there no scientific sources supporting this?

Because mainstream science papers do not publish papers that disprove a large portion of their past content

every fossil has flesh and 14C? Please provide citations for this.

Every dinosaur fossil that has been carbon-dated thus far has had C-14, but this does not mean they all do (it's just very likely the case). If you can find an AMS test that found no C-14 in a dinosaur fossil I will retract such a statement.

Unfortunately for you, all of that real world evidence that is out there and in the public actually supports MES. There is none supporting ID. Please provide appropriate citations that support your position though if you believe the evidence exists.

There is plenty of evidence - You just ignore the evidence contrary to your beloved theories.

Evidence: Dinosaur art by our ancient ancestors, soft tissue present in dinosaur fossils, C14 in dinosaur fossils, WWII Plane found underneath 260 feet of Ice in Greenland, Polystrate fossils (Trees found upright and spanning through multiple rock layers), rock formation (i.e. limestone) is a spontaneous process, and there's also a Book that contains the lineage of our true ancestry (Luke's account) --- the Greeks also have a similar historical record.

a reply to: cooperton

Having a thought and things being meaningless are not the same thing. That deserves the hipster, LOL!

Everyday we have no reason to get up in the morning and go on with our days but we fill it with meaning, jobs, family, friends, eating and drinking. These are not part of any grand design but the simple principle to survive. You are very oddly mistaken that these two are connected. Odd.

There is no grand design. Period. This comes from a mind not dissolved or effected by shear belief in science or shear belief in religion but understanding of common sense with what we have in front of us.

But im sure your about this even being true.

Doublepost

originally posted by: BlackProject
a reply to: cooperton
There is no grand design. Period. This comes from a mind not dissolved or effected by shear belief in science or shear belief in religion but understanding of common sense with what we have in front of us.

But im sure your

about this even being true.

You don't know that there is no grand design. You keep touting that as an absolute fact, but the thing about it is that we really don't know if the universe was had some designer, particularly when you take into consideration the multiverse theory which implies the possibility of an infinite universe which subsequently implies infinite possibilities. There is no evidence to suggest a designer, but there is still that possibility, however small.

originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: SLAYER69

whatever it is we were designed/created to finally accomplish.

Really? Why do you think we are anything other than another branch of life? Assuming homo sapien had never come into being, assuming none of the forebears to homo sapien had come into being, do you think every other species of life - plant or animal - would have missed us? I'm not so sure an arrogance that we are somehow the best of breed holds true personally, and without our footprint, maybe the world would be in a much better place.

Well first I have never understood calling humans "arrogant". Even if its true that the world would have been better off with out humans.....well oh well. Looks like we have had several extinction level events that had nothing to do with our foot print. So yea wow let the world go on with groundhogs digging holes, birds building nests year after year animal world round about. Big deal. Anyway you have these human animals that really are quite the spectacle in the animal world. Nothing even close to humans.....unless, as some will note that apes throw rocks at stuff but haven't been found building a convenience to mars or anything......deep in their jungle lab.

originally posted by: logicsoda

originally posted by: BlackProject
a reply to: cooperton
There is no grand design. Period. This comes from a mind not dissolved or effected by shear belief in science or shear belief in religion but understanding of common sense with what we have in front of us.

But im sure your

about this even being true.

You don't know that there is no grand design. You keep touting that as an absolute fact, but the thing about it is that we really don't know if the universe was had some designer, particularly when you take into consideration the multiverse theory which implies the possibility of an infinite universe which subsequently implies infinite possibilities. There is no evidence to suggest a designer, but there is still that possibility, however small.

That thought experiment of infinites leads to what atheists do not like.

If there are infinite numbers of universes covering all infinite possible universes, one of those possible universes has to have an almighty creator because it is one possibility, therefore an almighty creator is an absolute known certainty, and being almighty controls all universes.

originally posted by: TinfoilTP

originally posted by: logicsoda

originally posted by: BlackProject
a reply to: cooperton
There is no grand design. Period. This comes from a mind not dissolved or effected by shear belief in science or shear belief in religion but understanding of common sense with what we have in front of us.

But im sure your

about this even being true.

You don't know that there is no grand design. You keep touting that as an absolute fact, but the thing about it is that we really don't know if the universe was had some designer, particularly when you take into consideration the multiverse theory which implies the possibility of an infinite universe which subsequently implies infinite possibilities. There is no evidence to suggest a designer, but there is still that possibility, however small.

That thought experiment of infinites leads to what atheists do not like.

If there are infinite numbers of universes covering all infinite possible universes, one of those possible universes has to have an almighty creator because it is one possibility, therefore an almighty creator is an absolute known certainty, and being almighty controls all universes.

Certainly, that is... IF there was such a universe. If we do discover that the theory of multiverses has an overwhelming amount of evidence in support of it then, logically... we could say that there is a grand designer. Until that day, though... we just don't know. It just irks me when people make fact claims for things that they could not possibly know.