First peer reviewed published study on 'chemtrails' finds no evidence of a cover-up

a reply to: tetra50

proof would consist of taking a mid air sample of a trail you suspected as being a chemtrail. It would cost about 5 grand. We've looked into it before. Sadly, the insurmountable cost, seems to be the limiting factor in proving this conspiracy to be something real or not. And while spending $50,000 to make a video presentation about how real chemtrails are using circumstantial "evidence" is perfectly acceptable, doing that test is taboo. I wonder why that is.

a reply to: payt69

but do yourself a favour and settle this matter for once and for all for yourself. If it turns out that you can debunk the debunker, so to speak, well so be it.

I think you missed the overarching point in my message (no surprise Im a windbag).

My point was that "chemtrails" cannot be a natural occurrence on their own (as a topic or meme), and while its not a scientific opinion (if someone can create an algorithm/formula for this it'd be amazing) my intuition (as well as a comparative analysis done on multiple issues) says 'chemtrails' are not organic. The chemtrail 'meme' cannot have been created from nothing.

So you are left with few options. If the guy is false, he's likely paid to do what he's doing. Disinformation.

Example of inorganic meme/cause: Kony 2012 - didn't take long for that to die right?

Meaning if there was nothing to chemtrails, it would've died out by now. There are clear examples of many other subjects that have the same thing. They are either being superficially propped up (only reason for this is to distract or confuse another subject-government propaganda) or it's a real occurrence, or phenomena, in which case it's real and if you prove proponents are full of s### its more than likely they are paid to be there, or useful idiots socially engineered to carrying out their activities.

Hopefully I explained that a little clearer, regards, B

PS-this is the real message I came into this thread to deliver. If those of you are absolutely convinced, by open mind, thorough investigation, coming to the conclusions there is nothing to this, than I challenge you to find the purpose behind it. These things don't manifest without something behind them, whether its a real phenomena or government agency propping up something to distract or discredit a group. We are talking about a politicized topic. Politicized topics often have two sides. Topics that aren't, have a single blog page with some inane ramblings. As someone who spent years in the marketing industry, I gotta say it's impossible. Basically the chemtrail people if they converted their message-dissemination prowess to media sales they'd be millionaires (if its simple organic, which I don't think it is)

a reply to: boncho

Died out by now? People still argue flat earth theory.

From: Wikipedia › wiki › Contrail

"Contrails (/ˈkɒntreɪlz/; short for "condensation trails") or vapor trails are line-shaped clouds sometimes produced by aircraft engine exhaust, typically at aircraft cruise altitudes several miles above the Earth's surface. Contrails are composed primarily of water, in the form of ice crystals."

Funny they are white just like clouds?

a reply to: boncho

Here's the origins

Scientific ignorance and distrust and the psychology of conspiracy theorists keeps it going.

a reply to: boncho

Actually, I think you are wrong. The conspiracy was created becasue someone looked up, saw persisting trails, and didn't know what they were seeing. Much like the Mandela Effect, poor memory coupled with poor learning skills creates unneeded paranoia. So as you say, if there was nothing to it, it would be over by now, but since it's inception the trails have increased exponentially. We now have thousands of planes overhead in an hour as opposed to hundreds. SO while the trails still exist, and they are still contrails, the movement has remained current.

The goal posts continue to move. At first it was to cull the population, but when nobody died, they had to change that, it was to make us docile, since Fluoride wasn't doing the trick, but then how were there still non docile people in the world? Move them posts, now it's geo-engineering. Never mind that what is proposed would look nothing at all like white lines in the sky, since it was mentioned they would used some planes, that MUST be what it is. (all the while disregarding the scientific facts about contrails).

Then there was an added bonus. The kings of the conspiracy trained (see also brainwashed) their cult members into believing that anyone who questioned chemtrails was a government shill paid to disrupt their conversations and should be ignored and NOTHING they say can be regarded as truth. SO now, the only people they listen to are the ones who tell them what they want to hear. So providing nobody jumps ranks and actually tries to understand things like water freezing, clouds, or engines, those kings will continue to be paid to give speeches, paid by donations, and make millions from "detox" products they sell to those who suffer from the made up diseases from the made up conspiracy.

This is a complicated endeavor and it will take a while to fully grasp what it's all about. Take your time.

originally posted by: tetra50
OK. this escapes me daily, Perhaps I am just that dim. All planes leave contrails? Can we agree on that?

Its more like all planes can leave contrails. Whether they do or not depends on other things.

Chemtrais mean that the "contrails" the planes leave that we see everyday, MAY mean that there is a purposeful component or components in the CONTRAILS left behind all jets, right?

No, chmetrail theory holds that chemtrails are different from contrails and deliberately sprayed. The mantra is that contrails disappear while chemtrails linger because of whats in them. This was the central mistaken assumption that led to all this.

This doesn't seem so hard, really, but perhaps I'm mistaken, somehow.
IF all planes flying in the air leave a natural CONTAIL, it doesn't seem such a stretch that there may be accidental or purposeful components in said contrail to make a CHEMTRAIL, with or without an airline or plane's knowledge or acquiescence......

The mistake was simply that its all contrails, there is no difference, therefore nothing to actually get wound up about (except for genuine environmental concerns that have nothing to do with a bogeyman spraying chemicals on everyone).

Of course, every plane flying above us leaves a trail.....just like our cars leave a talisman of chemical dispute, right>
Why is this such an issue?
Why is it so hard to believe that something coming out of jet fuel contrails is probably not so good for the rest of us, when we already realize that car and bus exhaust isn't good for us, either?

This shiznit gets really silly every day, doesn't it?
tetra

The problem is that, by convincing themselves that chemtrails are different and deliberate, and out to get them, some of the more unhinged believer actually want to harm people who work in aviation and shoot planes down. The fewer people that are roped in by this nonsense, the better.

a reply to:

neutronflux

Died out by now? People still argue flat earth theory.

See, ironically that is the crux of my argument. The Flat Earth theory is not natural. It's being manipulated. That's the entire point. The internet wasn't invented last night, neither were conspiracies, neither were conspiracy forums or conspiracy discussion.

In the mid-90s to late-90s, there was a forum of Flat Earthers, with a membership of about 12-15 people. It was kind of a joke to most everyone in the circuit. After 9/11, political influence started dripping into conspiracy forums, plus a huge influx of people directly involved in the 'inside job' discussion/argument.

It was only recently where Flat Earth popped up with a huge revival, coincidentally as more and more information on Hollow Earth disappeared, and before thinking "Hollow Earth is as stupid as Flat Earth" keep in mind, HE doesn't necessarily mean the Earth is actually Hollow. It's recorded throughout numerous civilizations, histories, mystical texts, etc---that there lies a dimension beyond our own, Shambala, Shangri-la, Agartha, & various other names. Rumoured access points in the Bucegi Mountains, at the poles of the Earth (Nazis went to Antarctica after searching Tibet), & in underground tunnels in legends of the Native Indian Tribes, and of the Incan & Mayans in South America, tunnels that in some legends reach into other realms.

With the history of disinformation and applied-psychology, that which we know about, and by the natural evolution of conspiracy culture in the early internet, compared to recent times where information is heavily influenced, to think that all of these topics are organic in scope, is to be willfully ignorant.

William Casey CIA Director 1981 - “We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false”

a reply to: cuckooold

This is not a good study. Simple interviews without any science to back it up. This could be a zogby poll for what its worth. Where are the air sample chemical analyses to back up this shill study? Where's the evidence? All we have is the word of 75 scientists whom we know nothing about. Next

originally posted by: boncho

That's the problem right there. "Chemtrails" don't exist, geoegineering does. Now, is there nefarious geo-engineering going on? The fact "chemtrails" and the chemtrail agenda got pushed as hard as it did, smells like a limited hangout/disinformation.

Nice one

And what about this quote, "Also, it is possible that climate change is causing contrails to persist for longer periods than they used to"
Where did that come from when aircraft engineers have already stated that newer engines designs cause more cloud cover.
At the end of the day, anything subversive is going to be hard to detect anyway.
I'm still waiting for David Keith's Mexico geoengineering test results BTW.

originally posted by: richapau
a reply to: cuckooold

This is not a good study. Simple interviews without any science to back it up. This could be a zogby poll for what its worth. Where are the air sample chemical analyses to back up this shill study? Where's the evidence? All we have is the word of 75 scientists whom we know nothing about. Next

And what science based arguments form those that claim jets are used to spray specific chemicals? Simple to charter an air craft and grab samples?

One, prove which jets are spraying the chemicals? Where would commercial jets store any meaningful amount of spray along with fuel, passengers, luggage, and cargo.

Two, what is the supply chain for the chemicals. Where are they loaded onto the jets. Where are they stored at the airport. Who loads the chemicals. Who pays for the chemicals to be sprayed, made, and stored. Who makes the chemicals.

Three, are jet routs conducive to the area requiring spayed. Are pilots informed when to start and stop dumping spray. Is it let loose during take off or some point in mid flight.

Four, wouldn't the jet flight characteristics change as it looses weight. Wouldn't carrying extra chemicals limit flight distance? (Like a persons hiking with a ten pound pack vs a hundred pound pack.) Weight is a big deal to a jet. How is the weight balanced as the chemicals are used up?

Five, wouldn't the jet have to be designed or modified to spread chemicals. Who makes those parts. The FAA is in every aspect of airplane maintenance and regularly inspects aircraft.

Six, additive to the fuel? Not all chemical compounds will remain inert in fuel or the combustion process. Wouldn't chemicals in the fuel limit total fuel carried and range. Chemicals would hurt the efficiency of the engines.

Seven, no evidence of chemicals from jet crash sites.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: boncho

Since the entire idea of SAI is meant to mimic a volcanic eruption, you kind of have to use a little imagination. When the last few volcanoes blew, did they make white lines in the sky, or did they make the sky look hazy?

Then you have the problem of what chemical can be used to respond just like water in the clouds and is light enough to be carried on a plane then spread from horizon to horizon. Since you have exceptional research skills (I mean that) it would be cool to see what you come up with. (it's called Ice budget)

There are loads of nano-sized particles to fit the bill, while many can do harm.
I have no idea why you came up with that query, even now scientists are coming up with ideas like this one from 2012,
Titanium dioxide, (actually used as a sun blocker in suspension for your gub) anyway this guy would have you use it in dusty form to be sprayed in the most useful areas of the atmosphere.
www.bitsofscience.org...

Note that in the report that Titanium dioxide...a dust, is stated as benign when it clearly isn't.

I'll ignore your, " horizon to horizon" meme since it is irrelevant.

Spraying nano-sized titaniumdioxide into the atmosphere to combat climate change.

The technology concept developed in the UK and first revealed in this month’s tce magazine (“Up and away“; pdf), advocates dispersing benign titanium dioxide particles as used in paint, inks and sunscreens into the stratosphere to deflect the sun’s rays. In a tce webinar on 15 May, Peter Davidson, a Chartered Chemical Engineer, Fellow of IChemE and the Royal Academy of Engineering, and a former senior innovation advisor to a number of government departments, will call for this geoengineering concept to be researched as an insurance policy to cope with possible catastrophic effects of global warming if we don’t manage to reduce CO2 emissions fast enough.
Nice bloke!
Thing is the ol' thinking just does not go away, and it's not a matter of 'what if', it's a matter of, 'What when'

So, let's cut the bull. None of us know what is or isn't being done, or when or how, and looking a a plane's exhaust in the sky is known to most to be no evidence, unless there is some tangilble MO, and the only persistant debunkers of chemtrails per se probably come from the airline industry since aircraft exhausts have their own problems in health and net warming.

a reply to: boncho

Sorry the truth hurts...

a reply to: boncho

What perspective...you used a well known shyster for a source.

Sorry but when one lies and get's caught on numerous occasions he is just that...a liar.

He pushes his agenda without anything to back the claim, but that is okay for you...why?

And lastly you have been a member long enough to know that denying ignorance is what this place is about...so why embrace it, because using anything from Dane Wigington is doing just that...embracing ignorance.

a reply to: smurfy

You do know that pdf is from 2012 and not from this year?

So when you say it was revealed in this months magazine did we take a time machine back to then because last I checked it was 2016.

Guess you should check the dates on the article next time.

a reply to: smurfy

If your argument is they "could" spray something, I have never denied that. It has been brought up that a plane cannot physically carry the amount of anything necessary to spray a white line in the sky FROM HORIZON TO HORIZON as many contrails appear, and get called chemtrails since they linger long enough to notice the (horizon to horizon thing).

And as I mentioned, there is the issue of the proposed deployment area is in the Stratosphere, which is higher than planes normally fly, and it's meant to react like the aerosols released from a volcanic eruption. So the area for dispersal is much higher so the particulates will remain airborne for a longer period of time. If you think that would look like contrails, I'd love to hear why that is. If it wouldn't look like contrails and we agree on that, then we are left with "I sure hope they at least tell us before they start, because we likely wouldn't know it."


And yes, aircraft exhaust is bad. If you can find a better way to move people around the world in hours, I'm sure the world would love you and shower you with gifts, but until then, I doubt they would be willing to stop flying due to the pollution factor. I seriously don't get why you and your partner get all hung up on associating exhaust with this conspiracy. It has nothing at all to do with it. Pollution is bad, we all agree. Contrails are man made cirrus clouds.

a reply to: smurfy

You keep coming I with these same arguments that, on the whole, we agree with, but have nothing to do with "chemtrails".

"Horizon to horizon" is not irrelevant. It's what chemtrail pages and videos talk about all the time. Maybe you're in the wrong argument because nobody is saying anything about GE or SRM proposals when calling chemtrails a hoax. We are saying that there is no reason to think that aircraft contrails are a poisonous spray sent to krill us all in a secret plot by TPTB to kill off their own labour force.

The people that started this whole thing were simply paranoid about contrails they didn't understand. Or more cynically, they knew there would be plenty of people who would be. None of which has anything at all to do with SRM, GE, cloud seeding or anything else that happens to be vaguely similar.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: smurfy

You do know that pdf is from 2012 and not from this year?

So when you say it was revealed in this months magazine did we take a time machine back to then because last I checked it was 2016.

Guess you should check the dates on the article next time.

Read the post again...perhaps more carefully...thank you!

originally posted by: smurfy

So, let's cut the bull. None of us know what is or isn't being done, or when or how, and looking a a plane's exhaust in the sky is known to most to be no evidence, unless there is some tangilble MO, and the only persistant debunkers of chemtrails per se probably come from the airline industry since aircraft exhausts have their own problems in health and net warming.

To start with, you have stated nothing. What bull are we cutting? Usually cutting the bull means getting to brass tacks. The point. Your like something is or is not going on. very wishy washy for getting to the point.

I'll ask this first, what proof is given by current chem trail backers that specific chemicals are being spread by jets for what specific reason?

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: boncho


Sorry but when one lies and get's caught on numerous occasions he is just that...a liar. He pushes his agenda without anything to back the claim, but that is okay for you...why? And lastly you have been a member long enough to know that denying ignorance is what this place is about...so why embrace it, because using anything from Dane Wigington is doing just that...embracing ignorance.

So why do you choose to embrace ignorance? You didn't see my other post. I didn't repeat the same thing to you because I figured you'd be able to read it.

What perspective...

This perspective:


REPEAT:

See, ironically that is the crux of my argument. The Flat Earth theory is not natural (yet its super popular ----if there's noting to chemtrails the same principle applies). It's being manipulated. That's the entire point. The internet wasn't invented last night, neither were conspiracies, neither were conspiracy forums or conspiracy discussion.

In the mid-90s to late-90s, there was a forum of Flat Earthers, with a membership of about 12-15 people. It was kind of a joke to most everyone in the circuit. After 9/11, political influence started dripping into conspiracy forums, plus a huge influx of people directly involved in the 'inside job' discussion/argument.
....

With the history of disinformation and applied-psychology, that which we know about, and by the natural evolution of conspiracy culture in the early internet, compared to recent times where information is heavily influenced, to think that all of these topics are organic in scope, is to be willfully ignorant.

Add on: Chemtrails are no different. A meme does not persist for no reason. Either its a real effect, a real phenomena, that is being surprised and reprised by people who repeatedly discover it, or are 100% aware of it, or its a fiction, and it will die out if its made by a singular influence. Like Kony 2012, as it was popular briefly, and it died very quickly once an opposing side was presented.

Now, if it had helped some agency agenda, they could easily run an applied psychology program, and keep Kony 2012 up until today. That's an unnatural meme.

With everything we know about MK Ultra, the efforts to cover up UFOs with Sign, Grudge, Blueblook, the CIA funding National Enquirer & other tabloids, while controlling what went through the wire, official positions to debunk, discredit, and deride people who pushed topics that are anti-establishment, or threatening to it (more appropriately), it's willful ignorance to not take these things into consideration.

I went back into a Sorcha Faal thread recently to make this same point. It's been ~10 year now since Fail came onto the scene. In the meantime, we've seen dozens of conspiracy-related-websites came and go. We've seen ATS go threw growth and contractions, we've seen people disappear entirely, lose money, lose credibility, fall completely out of favour, total loss of credibility, etc ----yet, this one site, which produces numerous pieces of content every week, more than many people do who even have paid memberships.... no one questions how this person maintains this?

1 word. Disinformation.

If you ignore the fact disinformation exists, or that there are efforts/agencies to push it, than you are choosing ignorance, wilful ignorance. If you simply attack people without looking at the bigger picture, you are worse than simple ignorance as you may as well be getting paid for disinformation.

This is how they've kept topics at bay for ~70 years. They create false information, they social engineered 'debunking', both sides go after one another, tear apart peoples' understanding in the process.

---------

Kinda amazing you can totally ignore the point of what I was saying, lob endless ad hominem's and argue a straw man against me, and then claim you are denying ignorance!

What a brilliant example of the pseudo-skeptical movement, created in the 50s, and how its persisted into the minds of nearly everyone these days.

originally posted by: mrthumpy
a reply to: boncho

Here's the origins

Scientific ignorance and distrust and the psychology of conspiracy theorists keeps it going.

LOL, you mean the word the CIA invented to attack critics of the JFK murder, which was later admitted by a CIA historian to have been covered up by McCone and Dulles? Oh, and ~70 people related tot the case died in 10 years, a 100,000 Trillion to 1 chance of happening naturally?

You mean those conspiracy theorists?