1987 years failure of Christianity to build God's kingdom. Jesus' teaching recorded correctly?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

All the problems in history and the world today are not worthy to be compared to the GLORY to come.

That's what the Old Testament gods want you to believe - keeps you compliant

a reply to: ketsuko

Your analogy fails form the first instance - a loving parent doesn't tempt their children with a "tree of knowledge" in paradise and then wash their hands of the mess claiming "free will" or "the serpent"

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Earthly kingdom comes and grows into a mountain that takes up the entire Earth when Jesus comes back. Right now the kingdom is being built in heaven.

Is that so...hahaha

Luke 17:20-21 ESV Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Matthew 6:10 ESV Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Matthew 5:10 ESV “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: ketsuko

Your analogy fails form the first instance - a loving parent doesn't tempt their children with a "tree of knowledge" in paradise and then wash their hands of the mess claiming "free will" or "the serpent"

Yup there is no question, at best the Christian God would be neutral, at worst lawful evil, to put it in DND terms.

Him being a benevolent God isn't even on the table when you look at the universe.

a reply to: Deetermined

that a single sperm could fertilize a tiny egg and have it fully develop into a human being that has the ability to think, reason, and experience emotion.
Why don't you forward me that scientific paper that explains how all of that is possible and how it started from the very beginning.

You're right - they come from storks - lets crawl back under a rock. This thing called education is over rated. How else are we going to find like minded fools that'll drink our cool aid - all the time promising them their reward in the afterlife...hahaha

a reply to: JoshuaCox

That depends. At what point does a parent let a child attempt to stand on their own two feet and make their own mistakes?

Which kind of God do you want? One that continually catches you when you are about to fall or one who lets you find out why He said, "Don't do that?" so that you understand why? I have a feeling no matter which way He chose to go about things, you'd hate Him for it. He either be hated for being absentee or for being a dictator who doesn't really understand you or your needs ...

Parents can't win with their children, either.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

I thought you were Christian and I convince a Christian...There are enough evidence of Jesus being on earth. Pilate's records have it. The Jewish rabbis do not deny it either. You can't make billions of people in history believing something if it is totally absent. The problem is, the truth of Jesus Christ was restricted into the Roman frames, by a combination of physical destruction of people, communities of believers and books, and fabrication of half-truth books and their teachers. So we have two images of Jesus - one is the historical real person, and the other is the "image of faith" - the so produced faith in centuries. There was a strong drive the dead sea scrolls to put it back to the historical Jesus, they are still not released 60% or so.

a reply to: pthena

I don't think Breaking Israel News article is "fake". Rather we witness two branches of Judaism arguing between themselves. We know well the tradition of Rabbi Nachman is not the only one existing in Israel. His view of pacifist messiah is not shared by others who want to see a militaristic messiah. Here is the article of BIN if you didn't click my link so far:

www.breakingisraelnews.com...

What a 200-Year-Old Secret Teaching Reveals About the True Nature of Messiah Will Shock You
By Adam Eliyahu Berkowitz August 11, 2016 ,

“Megillat Setorim describes the Messiah as conquering the world without firing even a single bullet,” Dr. Mark explained to Breaking Israel News. “He is described as an innovator of wisdom, medicine, and music. A character who deals in making peace between Israel and embodies religious leadership also to the nations of the world. “Although initially the Messiah will not be acknowledged, Megillat Setorim is writing about when he is young, less than 12 years old,” Dr. Mark continued. “But later, when he is older, he will be recognized by all of Israel as a rabbi and scholar, and then he will begin to act as the Messiah. “Not in Megillat Setorim, but in other places, Rabbi Natan writes that he understood from his teacher Rebbe Nachman that the War of Gog and Magog would not be a physical war, but a spiritual and cultural war. “The Megilla itself is a wonderful vision of the order of the coming of the righteous redeemer, whose influence is spiritual rather than military, and the revolution he brings to the world will be spiritual, increasing wisdom, and empowering the place of music in human culture.” Read more at www.breakingisraelnews.com...[/ ex]

originally posted by: ReAppollonius
a reply to: pthena

I think it an appropriate time to quote a recent quote from a Jew, I think a Rabbi:


Those who say they know the Messiah, don't.

Those who do (know the Messiah) don't say.

and now the paradox, that those who are supposedly deepest into the secrets, as the top rabbi Kanievski, speak frely online. So freely that some readers are tempted to say it is not true. It is however, the top Jewish scholars speak of the messiah as if they have been drinking coffee with him yesterday! The very publication of the 200 year old scroll, at least the essence of it, that was considered top secret because it shows a different personage for the messiah, is now a fact! Let we make our conclusions of that.

I will say again, for me the messiah the Jews consider to come, is one of the 144,000, may be their earthly leader, who are promised to come in the Revelation before the time of the beast. I will not be tired to repeat that, because that is the clearest place in the Christian eschatology where such personage(s) exist and they are different from the so much fearful antichrist who makes the brains stop functioning even before marking them with any chip! Come on, if the faithful are so afraid of the beast even now, how they would be when finally he arrives! They have to be bold warriors of Jesus, not some fearful animals. Finally, exactly those fearful christians will bow down before the real antichrist, after they rejected God's rescue way in what may be called rapture or otherwise. The Jews are calling it otherwise. Where is the problem? That the Jews show us the salvation? Didn't Jesus tell the Samaritan woman, the salvation is from the Jews? Why to tell that, if ...he would come and rescue us all in a blink of an eye? I quoted other verses, and they were not interpreted by the respected posters. Nevermind, I write not only for those who would post here.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Where are today's cardinals who say every star is a new world?

Or who say that the "god you worship is the sun".

a reply to: ketsuko

That "depends" Didn't enlightenment come after the tasting of the fruit? At least lets be honest here

a reply to: 2012newstart

I was a christian once. I still dont quite understand your position - was jesus physical and "died" or coming back in "spirit"
What makes you think the...

So I am not afraid of any beast, because the beast should rise only after the Draconians are cast down together with their leader. And that can''t happen before the Manchild to be born, and before the 144,000 to appear on earth. Perhaps they are already here. As of the dragons who rule 1/3 of the skies, one may inform himself about the ET called Draconians.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

I share the same view of Jesus as the dogmas of the fathers teach us. At least they are declared to be infallible. But nothing more than that is infallible! (the pope when speaking ex cathedra too).

Sorry I would not discuss of Jesus coming in spirit. John said in his epistle, whoever denies Jesus came in flesh, has the spirit of the antichrist. Actually many of those who sincerely believe, do not have an educated belief. They deny the body at the expense of the spirit only. That was an ancient heresy if remember correctly.

The issue of the age of the believer is of essence. After all everyone of us has some personal motivation to believe what he believes. An aged person with a lot of illnesses is easier to be convinced it is all to be sacrificed and the only way out is thru death and resurrection at the last day. Of course that would be the logical way of everyone living on planet earth, up to the generation that would witness the Resurrection of the bodies, yes? It is shared not only by Paul, but also by our older brothers in faith, the Jews. If my readers want to know more they could read more articles of Breaking Israel news and words of rabbis who say, you the christians believe in the rapture and we believe in the resurrection.

So a young person is easier to accept the idea the current life and world doesn't have to end tomorrow, that there will be survivors from whatever cataclysm. And that God will give a rescue way of the body as well. So I guess most of the people who will be saved in that way will be among the 3 bln below the age of 25. An older person woud be convinced harder thru reason and combination of experience and failed hopes.

For now, I see the only viable way of physical salvation coming from the Jews. I saw it different sometime ago, when the extraterrestrial intervention/rapture was the way envisioned by me to be offered by God. Now, after years of disappointment, I think that the so called rapture will be given but in the form of conscious choice to side with the Jewish people and the salvation offered thru them. God will use them again as he saved Noah and Moses' people. Will God use ET angels then? The question is thorny for most of the people because it was taboo until recently. So perhaps the angels won't be called ET (although technically they are Extra-Terrestrial). The ships won't be called spaceships but anything from chariots to Heavenly Jerusalem descending on today's Jerusalem and gathering the saved people inside. The wordings don't matter, as long as the wordings help someone being saved. If more people will be saved that way, I would never use anymore the words spaceship and extraterrestrial and instead will be speaking of heavenly cities and angels only.

The messiah obviously will be the leader in the process (No second coming of Jesus at that point yet!!!) I envision at least 144,000 earthly people to join a chorus of at least 144,000 angels may be many more. Everyone who wants to find the way of salvation prepared by God will be able to do so. After whatever cataclysm, there will be a new /restored earth where Israel of God will be the center in spiritual influence. That is briefly how I see the things now, thanks to greater degree to those rabbis who leaked precious secret knowledge straight online for whoever wants to hear.

I think the mission of the Christians who understand this moment should be to educate as many people as they can. There will be many fanatics who have already denied even the remote idea of such kind of physical salvation. Be it rapture, be it the way the Jews see it. They will always be existent until the last moment. They prefer to sacrifice their lives for their ill understood kind of Christianity. Unfortunately, such trend is seen in major apparitions and their INTERPRETATIONS by hi clergy, that want to make another holocaust of everyone who would buy into their version, perhaps at the same time as the cataclysm. They want maximum people to decide to sacrifice their lives for the cause they present as "God's will". I don;t know what importance that has for the next life, obviously it has if it is sought so much by all religions. It is clear I do not buy into that scenario. I expressed it quite much detail in the threads dedicated to the Fatima prophecy - another example how holy texts could be misinterpreted and outright falsified by people in position who sought different goals.

My way is clear, I want to see God's salvation in body as well as in soul, if God provides such in my lifespan. If not, of course the way of spiritual salvation of the soul remains always open for those who die everyday, and I will be one of them one day. I think the day of Resurrection is rather near. it might not be 100% resurrection for eternity, rather temporal one for a number of years planned by God in the new earth.

As we may see, everything in politics is put on hold until that event happens. WW3 could start in 2008 in Georgia, and following every next year in Syria, Ukraine, North Korea, etc. It didn't because the world powers are restricted/restrained by the Divine timeline first to happen that event. You may call it Rapture, although the preferred term by the Jews is resurrection. Practically it means the same - salvation of the body and soul, be it for eternity or be it for determined period by God, if we are still not yet at the moment of the final resurrection (and no second Coming now).

a reply to: 2012newstart

Gotta be honest I find it interesting you use Revelation as proof source for confirming the non-Christian Messiah of Judaism and problematic (though not for me personally).

Although I have been told Kabbalists are quite fond of the book of Revelation. I think if the true Messiah (of all faiths) comes the only religion that would reject her would be Christianity because of good ole B 666.

They have been pre-programmed to reject anyone that comes who isn't J.C. They will be the new persecutors of the Messiah for certain based on inability to focus and read the fact that the B 666 already came in the first century and has been with us the whole time as RomanCatholicism although the passage says it was Nero, the Jews and the Catholic Church that would replace Rome as Babylon (it's true and they all have a connection to 666!

Good to know what that book actually says JUST in case it isn't just un sandwich de balogna rotten.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: ReAppollonius
a reply to: Raggedyman

Christ said he fulfilled the Torah, not ended it.

That means he came to live a transgression free existence and has nothing to do with the person of Abraham.

Abrahamic law is not even a thing, this is what happens when you read law and think law when you should be thinking Torah i.e. Law and the Prophets (Torah and the Prophets) because a Jew circa the time Jesus lived considered Torah Law and doctors of the Law are doctors or interpreters (never got the whole doctors translation) of the Torah.

Last time I checked it's still in effect for Christianity and a part of the Bible.

Christ didn't say that.

Oops, silly me, Abrahamic covenant, it was my error

I don't think anything. Say to you will carry any weight, maybe research for yourself
Start Romans, 7, 6 consider it in relation to a marriage

You are refusing to provide what I requested because you put words in Jesus' mouth and in retaliation are telling me "It might be somewhere in Romans, research it yourself!" Because I asked you for the quote of JESUS saying that the Law/Torah had died and you just figured out he didn't say that, which I already knew because I have read every book of the Bible. Literally more than once.

I don't think research is MY problem, maybe yours but that doesn't mean my research is faulty just because I stumped YOU. It means your research has been flawed, I revealed that and that you are denying to supply and telling me do it myself because you know you're wrong and CAN'T do what you I asked which is supply the QUOTE from Jesus himself saying what you claim he said.

I don't really concern myself with the rather silly epistles of the N.T. as if they haven't been deemed pseudepigraphal (most have) they fail to pass the test of "does this confirm not just the personhood of Christ (in the absolute oldest known texts; side note: not to mention the Codex Sinaiticus has Shepherd of Hermas and other Apocryphal works that I do like) but his actual theology and words.

Romans and the pseudepigraphal epistles do not, and Romans is thought by loads of people to be pseudepigraphal.

So I take it you are admitting that Jesus didn't say that the Torah/Law had ended, and that you were in error?

Kudos then to you as that is a rare trait in Christianity, admitting that Christ didn't say that and even more so just admitting you were incorrect on a major theological point.

It's rare is all, so

originally posted by: 2012newstart
a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

I thought you were Christian and I convince a Christian...There are enough evidence of Jesus being on earth. Pilate's records have it.

That is just not true AT ALL. Not a single historian contemporary to that generation he is said to have lived even MENTIONS one Yeshu ben Yosef called the Messiah. 0 nip nada nothing and Josephus Flavium Testimonium is a known Catholic interpolation.

Probably you are thinking of Jesus ben Ananias/Onias(?) who was the son of the High Priest.

Philo, Plutarch, Seneca the list is extensive and not a one mentions even a rumored Messiah except the lunatics of no consequence Josephus goes into much detail about.

The Jewish rabbis do not deny it either. You can't make billions of people in history believing something if it is totally absent. The problem is, the truth of Jesus Christ was restricted into the Roman frames, by a combination of physical destruction of people, communities of believers and books, and fabrication of half-truth books and their teachers. So we have two images of Jesus - one is the historical real person, and the other is the "image of faith" - the so produced faith in centuries. There was a strong drive the dead sea scrolls to put it back to the historical Jesus, they are still not released 60% or so.

They do actually deny it, and the only Rabbinical writings of Yeshu ha Notzrim say he lived during the Hasmonean era around 100 BC including the Toledot Yeshu and Talmud where he is said to be a bastard.

That's not confirming the existence of Jesus Christ and if you accept it as confirmation you must accept the dates AND the fact that he is in hell boiling in excrement.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were released in entirety and I have the book to prove it. The previously unreleased material was released in 1992 and was not of Interest to Christians because it confirms the existence of the Nazarenes but not of Jeshu.

If you are saying he was the Teacher of Righteousness you would have to adjust the date of his existence by 100 years or so which makes the actual Talmud and Rabbinical accounts of ben Pandira seem more accurate than the Roman sources!!!

originally posted by: ReAppollonius
a reply to: 2012newstart

Gotta be honest I find it interesting you use Revelation as proof source for confirming the non-Christian Messiah of Judaism and problematic (though not for me personally).

Thank you, but I speak that out of the deep belief by myself. I do not have a goal to convince anyone in something that I do not believe in, even less to use a book that I do not believe in. Yes the Gospels were changed, so is probably the book of the Revelation.

What we believe as Christians was actually always a shared belief with "our older brothers in faith" as John Paul II called the Jews. Omly, they believe Messiah ben David the way the old prophets speak of it, i.e. an earthly visible touchable king to restore Israel and to resurrect the bodies. Well that is the way the prophets describe him after all! The Christian belief comes on top of that, not to deny the old prophets in anyway. Many Jews now share the view that Messiah ben Joseph should have already come in history and died, i.e. they accept him as Jesus. How about two distinct messiahs? Fundamental Christians will jump, but that does not deny the fact of Jesus, neither his Second Coming (even the Muslims believe Jesus is coming agin besides their own prophet, what so strange after all?)

There is a moment that we should define better. WHere did all those prophets go, Elijah and Enoch included? We used to use the word heaven too much. In many languages it is one and the same word with sky, and space. We have to accept there are more planets created by God, and one or more of them are designated as heaven. Clouds do not suffice anymore. Having that understanding, it is much easier to accept holy people could come and go. It is no more "either or" question. There are trillions of beings living there. So what stops Jesus, Messiah ben David, Enoch, to travel to and from? What stops Jesus to come again, if before him messiah ben David comes, the leader of the 144,000 of Revelation, or perhaps the Manchild himself? What stops Melchisedek to come, as Dead sea scrolls published say he will come? Enoch, Elijah and how many more others? Our understanding of our belief is insufficient, and that rises controversies within the Christian belief even before they reach to the controversies with Judaism. t is immature faith. It needs redefinition and wider view of those issues.

I don't understand why that should contradict the Christian belief of the Second Coming of Jesus at the end of the world-universe. As the Revelation speaks of the end of Death, that means not only in humans but everywhere, including in animals, and in nonliving matter that experience destruction today. That means to change the laws of Physics and biology altogether. That is the end of the known Universe, nothing less than that. Well are we any closer to that moment?

if we read 2 Esdras, a canonical book in the Roman Bible Vulgate, we will reach an equation of time given by the angel to Esdras/Ezra. I will not repeat it, don't remember the chapter, you can find it online, I also have thread dedicated to it. In short, if you put any other time period as the life of the world from historic time, you get an answer that the world should have ended by now. If you put longer period such as the life of planet earth 4 bn years, or the life of the Universe, 13 bln years, then you get meaningful answer. But that answer means a million years or even a billion years in t he case of the universe still remain. So how could Jesus come and put an end of the Universe so soon?

Besides that calculation of 2 Esdras, there is a logical controversy. It is, when the Universe with all its stars and inhabitants, had the time to hear God's word and to turn to God? Perhaps the millions years ahead of us are intended exactly for that mission. That will be our mission among trillions of stars and their inhabitants. According to the UFOlogists many of them look like exactly like earthly humans, while others look humanoid but different. That is a matter to be decided in the next millenia. For now it remains how we SURVIVE the earth, be it from ourselves or from natural cataclysm.

I asked and will ask again if there is a rabbi to read, do you envision the messianic kingdom to be on another planet if the earth is too much damaged by that time?

Messiah ben David cannot contradict Messiah ben Joseph and his second coming!

If we put into the calculation the children of Jesus so strictly banned from canonical gospels, we receive a Universe filled with many more descendants of messiah, who naturally should be similar to their father. Are they the heavenly set of 144,000? I don't know. It is only logical guess. I know we have been lied by the early fathers and their followers, and that lie is not a small one. Not that it changes the core Christian belief, but it denies the believers the physical salvation. So the controversy (visible) with the Jews who offer the physical salvation besides the salvation of the soul. We should have no problem with it, if we would know Jesus had wife and children, who IMO dwell in the stars but it may happen some of them dwell in the world. I.e. if we believed fully that Jesus came into flesh. Because whoever denies that, has the spirit of the Antichrist, warns St John in his epistle. Paradoxically, those Christians devote but uninformed who cry wolf now at any mentioning of the Jewish messiah, or as they call it Mesiah ben David (to be distinguished from Messiah ben Joseph - Jesus), those people practically do not fully accept the idea Jesus incarnated with all his body functions including that to have children and heirs. After all, Jesus himself comes from David on his mother's side, as well as Messiah ben David on his father's side as we are taught by the Jewish prophets. So what is so strange if Jesus had relatives, friends, and he as well as they have descendants today? it is to accept Jesus as human. The other is to make out of him unreachable image of a ghost-like unsexual man who dwells somewhere that nobody knows. It is a heresy I think. But I am not the one to blame of heresy anyone. Enough of b
lames in history of what the other believes in. Here the problem is not what we believe in, but HOW we will be physically saved. And why some within the Church communities want to deny us that right, that gift of God promised to Abraham and the prophets. I am sure, promised by Jesus as well, but those books were banned and burned. Sure Jesus came in order we to "have life and to have it abundantly" as he is reported speaking in the gospel of John. Not everyone to die because he died. That is an absurd that conservative catholic circles and others spread as their own eschatology. it is against the idea of a resurrection that gives life. It is a gospel of death. Jesus didn't come for that. Neither to deny the Bible prophets or the belief shared by his brethren the Jews. After all, Jesus is a Jew too. So is Mother Mary and Mary Magdalene, as well as all apostles.

It's interesting that one can use a Holy Book to "prove" a point, and the next guy can use that same (or another) Holy Book to "disprove" your point.

That's what happens when you have books written by imperfect humans, and also interpreted by imperfect humans.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Well you seem like a reasonable guy, as far as I am concerned and I think it is good to have faith and keep one foot in the real world, which you are doing.

I just realized yesterday that David was a Benjaminite, correct me if I'm wrong, but that means Yeshu is a Benjaminite, wolf tribe.

Yeshua was probably the most popular name for Judeans in that era so there were tons of Joshua/Yeshus/Jesus' in that era because Joshua was a Messiah in his own right and time as was David and Messianic Judaism has never had another era like it.

Good thread.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Clearly the author of Hebrews was drawing on 2 Enoch for his Melchizedek theology as it's the only book of which Melchizedek is born of a virgin and 2 Enoch was drawing of a source of Qumran Nazarene origin.

I have just coincidentally began reading the Apocryphal Esdras which are in my Bibles as I only use Bibles with the Apocrypha since they are often the most interesting.

Ever notice that most Apocrypha use the term Most High almost exclusively and hardly ever use the Tetragrammaton or El/God?

I did, just something I find intriguing as many are becoming aware that there was originally a difference between YHWH and El Elyon, Elyon being the Most High and of Canaanites origin while Yahweh is specifically Israel/Judahite in origin.