1987 years failure of Christianity to build God's kingdom. Jesus' teaching recorded correctly?

a reply to: ReAppollonius

That a man was born of a virgin, was the son of God and died and ressurected is asking a bit much of any educated person and any person who does "drink the kool aid" doesn't learn anything about history, knowledge, wisdom, philosophy or science.

I laugh when I read these kinds of statements because we all know that the educated with all of their knowledge know exactly how it came to be that a single sperm could fertilize a tiny egg and have it fully develop into a human being that has the ability to think, reason, and experience emotion.

Why don't you forward me that scientific paper that explains how all of that is possible and how it started from the very beginning.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: ReAppollonius

That a man was born of a virgin, was the son of God and died and ressurected is asking a bit much of any educated person and any person who does "drink the kool aid" doesn't learn anything about history, knowledge, wisdom, philosophy or science.

I laugh when I read these kinds of statements because we all know that the educated with all of their knowledge know exactly how it came to be that a single sperm could fertilize a tiny egg and have it fully develop into a human being that has the ability to think, reason, and experience emotion.

Why don't you forward me that scientific paper that explains how all of that is possible and how it started from the very beginning.

What scientific paper? Forward me evidence of a historical Jesus Christ. I don't have much faith in science or religion because everyone lies.

I just think for myself, learn what I want to learn and leave the religion for the religious.

To me they are just books that have corrupt organizations making money off of a myth.

At least science deals with facts much of the time, religion is in the realm of not likely to be true theory.

a reply to: ReAppollonius

So, you think for yourself, but you're not sure what to think! Priceless!

a reply to: superluminal11


I just had to make a thumbnail for the sake of those who don't click on links. Hope you don't mind.

a reply to: pthena

A polished turd is just a shiny turd. Still a turd.

But I hear ya, it was warranted and it definitely rhymes.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: ReAppollonius

So, you think for yourself, but you're not sure what to think! Priceless!

I am as sure as one can be sure, although I guess that is dependent on the topic in general I am very sure.

Yes I think for myself, but you are wrong and putting words in my mouth as I DO know what to think.

Whatever makes the most sense.

For instance, you didn't quote me saying what you say I said because I didn't say it.

Makes sense.

a reply to: Deetermined

exactly how it came to be that a single sperm could fertilize a tiny egg and have it fully develop into a human being

Why does it take millions of sperm to fertilize an egg?

Seriously though, the short and sweet answer is this: the 200 to 600 million sperm normally found in ejaculate increases the chance that some will reach a mature egg, eventually with just one being able to enter and fertilize it. Evolution likely accounts for the high sperm count in a typical ejaculate — a male who is able to produce more sperm obviously has a better likelihood of fertilizing a female than his competitors.
...
If a woman's sexual and reproductive health are in good working condition, the first sperm to cross the finish line (enter the egg) succeeds in fertilizing it. "Helper" sperm can also be credited for easing fertilization by allowing this particular sperm access to and contact with the mature egg during its trip. With conception initiated, the now fertilized egg sets off some mechanisms, such as thickening of cervical mucus and hardening of its outer surface (zona pellucida), to block all other sperm from entering the egg.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: 2012newstart

Did you miss the entire message of the Bible or what?

If it taught us anything, it's that we're not capable of saving ourselves and that we needed a Savior. A Savior who told us not to get caught up in this world or worldly things because he was going to prepare a place for us somewhere else where there would be eternal life without sin and destruction.

And yes, the Bible tells us that Jesus will return to put an end to it ALL, including human life as we know it. For the corruptible must be raised to incorruption before it can enter the Kingdom of God.

Did you miss it instead?

Genesis 22 KJV
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

NIV
15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time
16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,
18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,[c] because you have obeyed me.”

That solemn promise of God that makes the foundation of our faith, does not sound to me as promise of death or afterlife, rather a promise for life of future generations. Humanity, let alone Abraham's descendants, did not reach the number of the stars, (as we know today they are 400 bln in our galaxy alone, multiplied by 100 bln galaxies).

The Christian theology is not the best interpretation of the words of Jesus. Most of it exalted the death and suffering, not the human life and the enjoyment of life. I see attempts have been made recently to fix it somehow in our age, with several encyclicals of popes, such as The joy of love, the Gospel of joy, etc.

The 144,000 anointed Jews, the great End times Corrective of Christian misunderstood religion

Revelation 7 New International Version (NIV)

7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


Matthew 23:39
For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

Why did Jesus say "he who comes in the name of the Lord" and didn't say "blessed is Jesus the Lord"??? Obviously because there is someone else that will come before Jesus' Second Coming. The 144,000 stand there and no one really cares for them. If there wasn't need of correction at the end times there would't be sent those people. No they are not going to preach to the gentiles and to be martyrs, as some preachers say. The gentiles had 2000 years and enough martyrs. The 144,000 are coming for those believers who have lost their faith compass. They come BEFORE the beast and before the Second Coming of Jesus at the end of the ages. And they are not martyrs because they reappear in Chapter 14 singing on Mt Zion already saved physically.

The Jewish messiah will be one of them, obviously among the 144,000 there will be some internal levels and he will be kind of their leader or so, I don't know just guess. That changes NOTHING about the expectation of Jesus' Second Coming at the end of the world. The Second coming and the end of the universe may happen after a million years, if you read 2 Esdras. Actually my calculation of the equation of time, having put in the known age of the Universe (13-14 bln years passed) gives roughly 1 bln years more.

So let not be so quick to try to bring down Jesus to earth. We can't do it, no matter how many antichrists we appoint in every single generation, and do nothing for building of God's kingdom while expecting Jesus to reward us for our service. it is a very ill understood gospel, even in its trimmed canonical form. I do not understand what the pope is waiting for, to announce the real gospel of the historical Jesus. Or may be he won't do it and will remain in history as the last pope of the megachurch? I am not a prophet, I just say my best guesses, and I want to believe the best will happen, although frankly I prepare for the worst. There is still some time, even if that time is measured in days and weeks.

OH BOY... Now I'm confused! I grew up believing that the Bible taught "deterioration". Mankind would deteriorate in ethics and morals to the point where God would need to wipe out everything, and then start over, with Jesus as the global President, running everything.

That belief is why I'm so surprised when people who believe the Bible, become exasperated and panicky over the seemingly increasing incidences of violence, declining morals, etc..

Does the Bible not teach a long steady decline for mankind to a point where God finishes us off, and starts over?

originally posted by: carewemust

Does the Bible not teach a long steady decline for mankind to a point where God finishes us off, and starts over?

No it doesn't It teaches the promises of God to SAVE US, PHYSICALLY TOO. Paul said, if you don't believe in the resurrection, empty is your faith and you are still in your sins. Resurrection may not be one moment event, as we tend to believe. It may be a longer period of time, first resurrected saints, and only then the rest of us. I don't know. Nobody does. Whoever pretends to know he only sells his own view, be it christian doctrine father or whoever else. None of us have experienced it so far, neither we are Jesuses and prophets. What we should now for certain, and I do not want to repeat my previous posts, is that God is infallible in His promises, even when we think they are about to fail or to be fulfilled "symbolically" - something very modern in the christian theology. God promises to Abraham and that's it. The stupidest thing of the christian theology was to cross over the Jewish chosen people and to say, the christians were the chosen people instead. They are, as long as they hold to the tree being a branch of it, said Paul.

It is a time to turn to the roots, and to see Jesus never ever denied those roots. Rather, as I just explained, we have the image of the innocent 144,000 who come to show us the way in a so much deluded world AND christianity. Because what you read in your gospel books is not what Jesus wrote down. What you read of Ezekiel, is what Ezekiel wrote down, or at least his disciple under his direct supervision. I will not repeat old posts.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

The global flood as explained in the bible

I understand you don't believe it but others do
If you don't, that's good but please dont tell others what they can believe or don't

You can only assume, dictating, demanding people, preaching at others, it makes you come across as fundamentalist, not a good look

You start o sound just like those crazy wackos who demand you accept it, just from an opposite perspective, you are no different than verscikter

"Vershikter, if buzz doesn't believ, it's her choice

"You can only assume, dictating, demanding people, preaching at others, it makes you come across as fundamentalist, not a good look"

Pot, kettle, black, dude.

I havnt demanded, told forced my opinion on anyone, Buzz can believe as she chooses.
To say IT DIDNT HAPPEN, well thats just silly, as silly as saying it did
and they are BOTH DEMANDING, i wasnt, i was warning them how they acted

Go wash your pot and kettle, not my buisness

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Raggedyman

You start o sound just like those crazy wackos who demand you accept it, just from an opposite perspective

There is no God but Allah, and Mohamed is His prophet.
On the last day, all life will be ended.
On that day those who submitted themselves to Allah,
listened to and obeyed the recitation,
believed in the last day and the resurrection,
will be resurrected to live in paradise.

Everyone else is a loser.
---------------------------------------------------
There may be a God. We do not know her name.
She is the God of plankton, and trees, and dinosaurs, and Dodos, and the Great auk, and well the list is very very long.
We are fairly certain that she doesn't speak English, but we could be wrong.
--------------------------------------------------
Of those two choices which sounds closer to Christianity?

Thats not my business, I am not involved in that sort of stuff, more an empirical evidence guy

whats your opinion on your own question

a reply to: 2012newstart

Thanks for the reply, 2012NewStart. I'm glad I'm not the only one who realizes that society must deteriorate, according to the Holy Bible. But why are there only 144,000 "Innocent" people? I don't get that part.

And could you please present your information in more of an elementary-summary format please? Thanks in advance.
-cwm

a reply to: 2012newstart

So you have proposed a few correctives:

1) Some texts uncovered in the last 70 years or so.

2) Some texts still hidden in the Vatican.

3) Encyclicals by the Pope.

4) The 144,000 Israelites

5) and the Jewish Messiah

The Christian theology is not the best interpretation of the words of Jesus. Most of it exalted the death and suffering, not the human life and the enjoyment of life.

Obviously the canonical gospels have very scant mention of the human joy of life of Jesus, what, 10 verses or so? So, we must look somewhere else to find this joy of life. So 1) & 2) ? Then we can read about this joy?

Under 3) Here is a quote from Joy of the Gospel

A Summary of Evangelii Gaudium (Joy of the Gospel): Pope Francis' First Apostolic Exhortation
1. The Basic Proclamation of the Gospel (Kerygma)

For Pope Francis, evangelization begins by sharing the basic message of the Gospel.

“In catechesis too, we have rediscovered the fundamental role of the first announcement or kerygma, which needs to be the center of all evangelizing activity and all efforts at Church renewal… On the lips of the catechist the first proclamation must ring out over and over: “Jesus Christ loves you; he gave his life to save you; and now he is living at your side every day to enlighten, strengthen and free you” (#164).
...
I invite all Christians, everywhere, at this very moment, to a renewed personal encounter with Jesus Christ, or at least an openness to letting him encounter them; I ask all of you to do this unfailingly each day. No one should think that this invitation is not meant for him or her, since “no one is excluded from the joy brought by the Lord” (#3).

This personal encounter in the person's day by day life should make the reading of joy in a book of little consequence, since that joy of life should be in the person's day by day life.

As a general renewal of Christendom, that's been tried many times in the U.S. ever since the first colonists. Since the 1950s there have been many interdenominational crusades and revival movements. The benefits seem to have had a lasting effect for a few individuals with little to no improvement to Christendom as a whole.

4) The 144,000 Israelites. What sort of role or function would these people have?

5) the Jewish Messiah. What sort of role or function would this guy have?

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: superluminal11

I just had to make a thumbnail for the sake of those who don't click on links. Hope you don't mind.

How can christians be Jews
Christ said the Abrahamic Law had died with Jesus and christians acceptance of him

the truth is the Abrahamic law still stands for those outside of Christ, making atheists more Jewish than christians

Good try for the thumbnail, kudos, but it shows your naivety (going to say ignorance but it could be deemed as rude) in the subject.

a reply to: carewemust

It is said in the book of Revelation chapter 7 and chapter 14, I don't know why, it is God's choice. They are all Jews.

If you or someone else want to read more about the recent developments of rabbis expectations of the Jewish messiah, and my intake on it, you may do so in this thread
www.abovetopsecret.com... Jewish Messiah personal character revealed in ancient scroll, my best guess of his name

Oh I think I speak quite elemental and with poor English, thanks for bearing with me!

a reply to: pthena

thank you for that analysis and further development of my poor posts! But not my posts rather the ideas that should not be connected to my personage. Well, I said quite much in other threads, not only the last few. Don't know why this thread got more attention. You may click on my profile and browse more. Yes I want to believe the pope Francis will make a difference after so many centuries. But the clock is ticking and we don't really see what was expected by him on his election 3 years ago.

It is hard to determine in advance what the role of the 144,000 would be, or even more that of the manchild. I wrote here one post, and have another thread dedicated to Revelation 12. Today is Assumption of Virgin Mary that is the 3rd biggest holiday in Christianity. The reading is exactly Revelation 12. The woman is associated with Virgin Mary and the Church, some say also with the Israel.

But the manchild cannot be baby Jesus for obvious reasons. Jesus was not taken up to God's throne as baby, moreover the text is written hundred(s) of years later, and envisions the future. I don't know who the manchild will be and whether he will be born in our lifespan or after thousands of years more. I also make a distinction in time between the start of the war in heaven coinciding with the birth of the manchild, and its end coinciding with the casting satan and his angels to earth. That period of time could be significant, having in mind the stars are no more 6,000 as they were known at that time, but trillions upon trillions.

It is easier for the 144,000 to figure it out because it seems they are more earthly yet with mission transcending space and time. Whatever their full mission is, their immediate mission would be to fix the image of the church that now is not clothed with clean wedding robe, as the Revelation says later. I don't know what their entire mission would be, they may convert gentiles, however it seems to me that should not be their main mission since the gentiles had already centuries at their disposal to choose. Perhaps you could help me to develop the idea of the 144,000 young Jews on earth and their mission in the pre-end times (pre-beast time). As of the Jewish Messiah he might well be one of them. It would be too difficult for me and time consuming to elaborate or to connect him with the image of the manchild, although not impossible.

Also, what I write in my thread of the Jewish Messiah, of possible descendants of Jesus Christ, here on earth or elsewhere int he Universe, should be taken as idea worth of consideration in view of the latest info of both Jesus' life on earth and our knowledge of the wider universe. That changes much, if you have hundreds of thousands or more descendants by now for all those 1987 years after His ascension "in a cloud" to "heaven". Let start reading the Bible with its contemporary meaning. No one would use other words than cloud and chariot in the time of its writing. It is a time to stop centuries old taboos and to start talking of other worlds created by the same God, and angels having no wings but instead traveling from those worlds to help us on earth.

a reply to: Raggedyman

whats your opinion on your own question

I don't claim to be a Christian. If you claim to be a Christian then take this challenge: Take one of those statements, change 5 or less words in the one chosen, then write it out as consistent with your beliefs.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Christ said the Abrahamic Law had died with Jesus and christians acceptance of him

What Abrahamic law? Circumcision is the only law, all the rest is promise to Abraham. It is written that Jesus said "Before Abraham was I AM." Paul wrote in Galatians that if a person is in Christ, the seed of Abraham, than he/she is of the seed of Abraham and heir to the promises even without circumcision.

the truth is the Abrahamic law still stands for those outside of Christ, making atheists more Jewish than christians

Only if they're circumcised. I don't know what women are supposed to do. Make sure their father's and husbands are circumcised? I don't know. I'm not Jewish.