1987 years failure of Christianity to build God's kingdom. Jesus' teaching recorded correctly?

originally posted by: enterthestage

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: ReAppollonius
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Personally I find that assumption very pedestrian and lacking in thought. It sounds like basic preacherman spew to me. guarantee that you can not prove that the two accounts, different accounts telling a different tale, are connected.

Scripture doesn't say what you are, it gives two accounts that don't fit unless you force them to by dropping all critical thinking. People don't hang themselves and then spontaneously combust, it just doesn't happen and the argument your using is the "standard" for the average preacher to make something make sense.

Only it makes no sense.

I never said he spontaneously combusted, re-read what I said. I said he hung himself and wouldn't have been cut down until Sunday. For the same reason Jesus was rushed into the tomb, any Jew touching them would be ritually unpure for the feast days then the weekly Sabbath. A dead body becomes very bloated in the sun, cutting it down would make it burst when it hit the ground. Judas hung himself, when he was cut down his body burst open.

What???!!!

That doesn't happen ever. Obviously you can't die twice and either he hung himself or he fell and burst which sounds like he took a header off a cliff to be honest.

Either way what you just proposed is a weak theory that the Bible doesn't support in any way. You don't leave out important details and one tale of his death is different than the other with no way to reconcile them. You are just saying you think that is what happened which is fine I could care less but honesty and common sense says two people wrote down two different accounts of his death and one has to be wrong. Mental gymnastics is not a pious attribute honesty to logic is way more virtuous than blind (in the dark) faith.

The bible does support allowing any monster who repents and converts into the kingdom of heaven.


Child rapist and murderer who repents and converts in prison??? No problem your going to heaven!


Regular adult rapist who repents? Going to heaven.


Child abuser or cheater who converts and repents? Heading to heaven!


Atheist who devotes their life to helping those less fortunate than themselves? BRAKE, no heaven you burn in hell!!


A) who could ever consider that the policy of a benevolent god?

B) who would want to go to a heaven full of humanities worst people, there is no more hardcore, religious group than your local jails and prisons.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

I admit the topic is larger, anyway, is what you are writing connected to the topic? If so, please explain your point of view in relation to the discussed topic in this thread. Rapists etc, good to know it, but how it relates to all that about the Church history and the rest of things?

a reply to: enterthestage

would you please explain how what you write connects to the discussed topics in this thread? Not for me but for the sake of the readers who might not have the opportunity to post, rather are happy to read the particular discussion. How what you write connects to it? I encourage discussion that goes away from a strict line, anyway, to dedicate that time and space for Judas don't seem to me quite productive. Of course you have the right to do it, especially if you do it in your own thread dedicated to that subject. That is how I understand the things. You are welcome to contribute to this thread with your own views on the discussed things, including of Judas if it connects. Well, I didn't start talking of that, you guys did and now please explain what connects it. If not, please make your own threads. There is enough space in Abovetopsecret for everyone, regardless of the religious views! Thanks!

a reply to: 2012newstart

I updated my profile photo with the Cathedral of Milan, a unique Gothic structure. The reason behind is I value a lot the work done by cardinal Angelo Scola with his center Studium Generale Marcianum, an academic institute, and the journal Oasis, published in Italian, English, French, Arabic and Urdu as an outreach to Christians in the Muslim world en.wikipedia.org...
I believe the future of the Catholic Church is in the dialogue and finding the common ground, not only with the Orthodox Churches but also with our older brothers in faith the Jews and our younger brothers, shall I say that way, the Muslims. Not one world religion, rather finding what stands behind our common belief. Because we don't have many more years for that. We either survive together or die together. It is worth the efforts.

OK I mixed the threads with posts here and there, you can always click on the link at the bottom of the other active thread I keep posting now.

I'd like to propose the idea of a common youth meeting between Christians, Muslims and Jewish young people. Currently, there are the World Youth Days for the Catholic youth that gather usually above 2 mln participants every 3 years. That is good. However, the emotions go hi for so many people, including emotions about daily needs and sleeping bags, and the real work done is not that much. You certainly can't get in touch with a million new friends in less than one week.

It would be better to have more selected and less in number groups who are well prepared to discuss vital issues of the religions. Not fanatics though, rather young people who are ready for dialogue. The accommodation for less people won't be that big problem as it apparently is at the WYDs. If you will, there could be gathered 144,000 or so. Not the exact number, rather the decision to grant more creativity to the youths and then the results of such conferences to be listened to by the hierarchy! Something that I do not know if it is the case with the WYDs. How otherwise the Churches and religions will reach common ground if they stay isolated, and only hi level talks occur something like diplomatic taks where everyone stays on his position and seek gains in exchange of some concessions. Let give opportunity to the young spirit and enthusiasm of those who are our future!

That is in addition to the actual 144,000 young Jews that have to come or have already come, and the perspective of soon to be announced a young Jewish messiah a man of art and music, that I comment more in the linked thread.

originally posted by: 2012newstart
a reply to: enterthestage

would you please explain how what you write connects to the discussed topics in this thread?

Look at the quote in my message and my explanation will not be necessary. I don't know how the conversation got started but that message was off of a quote and related to a quote about Judas different modes of death. One by hanging and one by falling so hard he burst, which sounds like he took a leap to me.

Not for me but for the sake of the readers who might not have the opportunity to post, rather are happy to read the particular discussion. How what you write connects to it? I encourage discussion that goes away from a strict line, anyway, to dedicate that time and space for Judas don't seem to me quite productive. Of course you have the right to do it, especially if you do it in your own thread dedicated to that subject. That is how I understand the things. You are welcome to contribute to this thread with your own views on the discussed things, including of Judas if it connects. Well, I didn't start talking of that, you guys did and now please explain what connects it. If not, please make your own threads. There is enough space in Abovetopsecret for everyone, regardless of the religious views! Thanks!

53 days to Fatima anniversary Oct 13 that constitutes the last possible date of Fatima calendar of dates to fulfill the enigmatic words of Malachi Martin "we don't have 20 years more", and the words of Our Lady (Neues Europa version) "second half of the century". I bet divine prophecy won't wait until the midnight of Oct 12, 2017. We get phenomenon 2000 again, which year is the end of the century. For al those who have mind to think, or ears to hear as Jesus said.


Salvation has different forms, and one of them is the salvation of soul of course, the most important one. Is that what God envisions when He said He would save His elect ones, and unless the days were shortened not even one FLESH would be saved?


The Church(es) would do better to start talking about that Now, Today, not waiting an longer. They have waited enough and lost precious time enough in history and also in our lifetime.


It is useless if someone starts to throw stones at the messenger. Be it a seer, be it a poster, be it a cleric who speaks o fleaked secrets. It helps nothing, certainly not to the stone thrower. Even if those people were wrong, they still talk to the best of their knowledge. And how we know they were wrong? Because we know it better always? I don't pretend to know things better. I just write to the best of my knowledge and given grace. May be not writing all I get, because even that part already posted is not accepted.

a reply to: enterthestage

That doesn't happen ever. Obviously you can't die twice and either he hung himself or he fell and burst which sounds like he took a header off a cliff to be honest.

Why doesn't happen ever? Any dead carcass that sits in the sun for a few days will bloat, that's a fact of decomposition.

Interesting you say that because that is the common belief where Judas hung himself, the cliff overlooking the field of blood in Judea. And I didn't say he died twice, I though I was pretty clear the second time. Judas hung himself, when he was cut down his bloated body fell to the ground and burst open. Only two things are certain from the texts, he hung himself and when his body hit the ground it split open.

This issue with Judas has confused a lot of people thought the centuries, here are a few links explaining the same thing I tried to explain earlier:

Here

Here

a reply to: 2012newstart

I think we mostly agree actually. There are some key fulfillments of prophecy that must happen first. For example the antichrist can not be revealed until the Jewish temple is rebuilt. The antichrist will repeat the abomination of desolation similar to the actions of Antiochus Epiphanes who sacrificed a pig in the Jewish altar, and called to be worshipped as God. The abomination is an idol he set up there. The antichrist will probably set up an image of himself.

As for the timing of the trumpets and the call of the 144 thousand, we have to be careful because the timeline of Revelations is not linear, it's more like a telescope. One set of judgments overlaps the timing of another set. You can see this when you start to correlate it against Matthew 24.

Years ago I made a chart of this effect, let me look that up.....
So the ministry of the 144 thousand is described in Rev. chapter 7 and sits between the seal judgements in Rev. 6 and the Trumpet judgments of revelation 8. Their ministry is successful in that it brings into the kingdom millions and hundreds of millions of souls who get martyred.

Martyrdom is described in Rev. 6:9-11 and is the fifth seal judgment. This implies that the 144 thousands ministry occurs before the fifth seal judgment, and is likely concurrent with seal judgments 1-5, which is concurrent with trumpet judgments 1-3, which is concurrent with bowl judgments 1-3.

As you have said though the sealing and training of these servants of God must occur before the wrath of God breaks out in the first seal judgment and prior as well to the trumpet and bowl judgments. What is curious is whether their ministry starts before or after the antichrist is revealed by the abomination of desolation.

However the end time events described in Matthew 24:1-12 are increasingly being fulfilled, including false christs, wars and rumours of wars, persecutions and betrayals, false prophets, earthquakes and the increase of iniquity. All of these precede the antichrist components involving the temple, starting in Matthew 14:14.

The Jews are ready to rebuild that temple at any time. They can have it up in months fyi. When that happens look out!

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I am sorry I don't agree with mainstream theology (actually not) but no link or irrational explanation is going to change my mind. It's basically absurd to suggest that a hanged man then falls and bursts (because of the fall or even if not, but the fall made him burst is how it reads).

I am not confused, you would like me to be and are suggesting I am, but I am far from it.

I respect your opinion but politely disagree and that is that.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: enterthestage

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: ReAppollonius
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Personally I find that assumption very pedestrian and lacking in thought. It sounds like basic preacherman spew to me. guarantee that you can not prove that the two accounts, different accounts telling a different tale, are connected.

Scripture doesn't say what you are, it gives two accounts that don't fit unless you force them to by dropping all critical thinking. People don't hang themselves and then spontaneously combust, it just doesn't happen and the argument your using is the "standard" for the average preacher to make something make sense.

Only it makes no sense.

I never said he spontaneously combusted, re-read what I said. I said he hung himself and wouldn't have been cut down until Sunday. For the same reason Jesus was rushed into the tomb, any Jew touching them would be ritually unpure for the feast days then the weekly Sabbath. A dead body becomes very bloated in the sun, cutting it down would make it burst when it hit the ground. Judas hung himself, when he was cut down his body burst open.

What???!!!

That doesn't happen ever. Obviously you can't die twice and either he hung himself or he fell and burst which sounds like he took a header off a cliff to be honest.

Either way what you just proposed is a weak theory that the Bible doesn't support in any way. You don't leave out important details and one tale of his death is different than the other with no way to reconcile them. You are just saying you think that is what happened which is fine I could care less but honesty and common sense says two people wrote down two different accounts of his death and one has to be wrong. Mental gymnastics is not a pious attribute honesty to logic is way more virtuous than blind (in the dark) faith.

The bible does support allowing any monster who repents and converts into the kingdom of heaven.


Child rapist and murderer who repents and converts in prison??? No problem your going to heaven!


Regular adult rapist who repents? Going to heaven.


Child abuser or cheater who converts and repents? Heading to heaven!


Atheist who devotes their life to helping those less fortunate than themselves? BRAKE, no heaven you burn in hell!!


A) who could ever consider that the policy of a benevolent god?

B) who would want to go to a heaven full of humanities worst people, there is no more hardcore, religious group than your local jails and prisons.

Repenting is far more than just saying I repent it's taking thr teachings to heart. And do you think people deserve second chances or any mistakes we make as humans must be punished for all eternity?? I personally think it's much better is we make a mistake and truly sorry for what we have done that people should be given a second chance. If only to redeem themselves to those around them. With your strict rules in place if I steal something as a kid I should be branded a thief for the rest of my life. You can never take back your actions however you can learn from them and become a better person.

originally posted by: enterthestage
a reply to: NOTurTypical

I am sorry I don't agree with mainstream theology (actually not) but no link or irrational explanation is going to change my mind. It's basically absurd to suggest that a hanged man then falls and bursts (because of the fall or even if not, but the fall made him burst is how it reads).

I am not confused, you would like me to be and are suggesting I am, but I am far from it.

I respect your opinion but politely disagree and that is that.

Believe as you wish, no big deal. But it's a fact that a human body begins to decompose at the point of death and it bloats a great deal the first few days because it begins to break down into gas and body fluids fill the cavities of the body. That's just what happens to a carcass.

a reply to: NOTurTypical


If that was a fact (I don't know) it has nothing to do with the facts available in the Gospels and the real fact is two authors say one Judas died two different ways.

I love when Christianity tries using science to explain technical difficulties in scripture and then curses science over evolution. Lol

In this case it just doesn't work. Either he hung himself or fell and burst. Your opinion is far from fact, it can't be proven and the FACT that two different accounts of one mans death exist in the Gospels is...a fact. It's a guess, what you are saying, pure and simple guess.

I am sorry I started this thread. NOTHING will change in Christianity not until the final times, be they end times or not.

originally posted by: 2012newstart
I am sorry I started this thread. NOTHING will change in Christianity not until the final times, be they end times or not.

What end? Death?

Why would it change? I wish it would but it never does.

a reply to: SevenThunders

I know that theory in detail. So we care of ONE Jewish temple that doesn't exist for 1900 years, and we don't care of THOUSANDS of Christian temples that are desecrated so many times? If we are looking for "abomination of desolation" it already took place many times in our Christian churches. I can't imagine why someone would like to sacrifice pigs at the stil non built Jewish temple, and the Christians will die of fear because the Jews might start sacrificing lambs? Don;t the Muslims do exactly the same everywhere, and no one calls them antichrists?

I understand the point of view of ZIonist Christians who do not agree with ~1700-year old theology and coined their own, closer to the roots, but it is somewhat wrong in that part concerning the Jews and their role in salvation. Moreover, the Messianic Jews are something new that has already arrived that changes the picture many times over. What we talk of, are paradigms from the time of Martin Luter.

a reply to: enterthestage

final times on Earth the way we know it. Check the OP post.

a reply to: 2012newstart

What if everything you say is true, every word of it. If our future and afterlife have been determined by gods before we were ever born, prepare for what? In the end, is it not still gods who decides who goes to heaven/paradise? So, if prophecy is true, we should be good to others and have a good time till then.

originally posted by: 2012newstart
a reply to: enterthestage

final times on Earth the way we know it. Check the OP post.

Yeah, death. The world will be here after us and longer. There is no "final times" as people have (ludicrously) believed for 2000 years. It's a case of misinterpreting the scriptures and fear based manipulation. Everyone in Jesus day thought they lived in the end and so has every generation since.

You want to change Christianity? Discovery the enormity of false prophet Saul's impact negatively on what was a reasonable theology that he shunned in order to be the first cult leader of Christianity.

Then you will be in a position to effect change. You can't see it if you don't want to and because you don't want to but anybody with even average reading skills that has read Matthew to Revelation has seen what you aren't or are in too deep to admit.

It's the story of the 12, Jesus and later after he ascends some murdering snitch troublemaker cancels the true teachings for worthless rambling complaints and nothing he says is remotely intelligent. He is terrible and how people can't see this is mind boggling. I think that the teachings of Jesus are soteriological and gnostic in essence. Paul's "only faith not works (of Torah) justifies/saves are his only and not from anyone else, as he boasts about so often. That means he made them up.¥

Be a part of the solution if you want to help, stop ignoring the overwhelming evidence of Saul's being the prophecied false prophet of Matthew and confirmed by Paul and Revelation.

Until then you are part of the problem.

¥Essentially he is saying don't learn from anyone who isn't me or approved by me especially the arch Apostles (who actually met the Messiah). It's a test, you are warned of Saul in Matthew 24:23 and you didn't know it but you are being tested in loyalty. Hell he doesn't even get mentioned in Revelation which if he was chosen would have happened. 12 Apostles are mentioned but he is not one of the 12 as there were 12 before him already and that is the max.

I don't know who you are trying to blame for the sad state of Christendom but you should focus on Paul. The first Christians the Ebionites and Nazarenes did, and they knew Jesus.

Paul is a liar, read the book straight through and you will get it.

a reply to: 2012newstart

Oh and blaming Islam for for the acts of a minority of a minority isn't helping.

Most Muslims are kind and decent people who want a good life and love their version of events told in Qur'an. Nothing in Islam is so terrible that it deserves universal contempt. It has problems like Christianity and Judaism but your problems have nothing to do with Islam.

You are letting people tell you what Islam is, that It's bad and that isn't the case. A few bad eggs, sure. But Christianity has as much or more blood on its hands than Islam. I like Muslims, cool people who believe that Jesus was the Messiah and not God.

Since Jesus never claimed to be God that is hardly an issue. Small things like that don't deserve contempt but people will always look for a reason to classify people as bad based on religious persuasion. Not that you are but that is an ignorant thing to do, scapegoat Islam. It's a more believable religion to be honest and closer to what Jesus taught than Paulinism, err, Pauline Christianity teaches.