1987 years failure of Christianity to build God's kingdom. Jesus' teaching recorded correctly?

If the Church (catholic, other) want to change things, having already the PROVEN FACT of changed Gospels in significant things (such as the marriage of Jesus but not only), it should go back to the roots. And our roots are nowhere other than in the Jewish roots. We share common heritage. Then we will see better the truth of Jesus Christ as well. No prophet in the Old Testament was "unmarried". Even when they didn't live with their families, they still had them. Why should Jesus be an exception?

originally posted by: 2012newstart
If the Church (catholic, other) want to change things, having already the PROVEN FACT of changed Gospels in significant things (such as the marriage of Jesus but not only), it should go back to the roots. And our roots are nowhere other than in the Jewish roots. We share common heritage. Then we will see better the truth of Jesus Christ as well. No prophet in the Old Testament was "unmarried". Even when they didn't live with their families, they still had them. Why should Jesus be an exception?

Jesus married ? utter nonsense !

a reply to: Ove38

There are volumes that say so. And not only the old banned apocrypha. But also newly discovered ancient texts. If the common christians still think it is a nonsense, it is thanks to the leaders who concealed the truth of Jesus for so long.

Moreover, the Churches should adopt a new doctrine (not necessarily a new dogma) dealing with the 144,000 innocent Jews who appear in the Revelation twice. They come before not after the Great Trib. IMO they come as corrective of the system. The idea of the Roman Catholicism that they represent the unmarried priesthood, is absurd. Let alone how clean the priesthood is. The priesthood never ever played the role the 144,000 of the Revelation.

I wonder, would the Church system ever incorporate such innocent people into its hierarchy, let say new cardinals, wh are not bound by centuries old schemes and not formed into the system, but who come from outside to correct it. Or it is doomed to fail as system (not as Church of believers) and therefore any corrective is useless. If that is the case, the 144,000 will come to speak directly to the common believers.

In that way, I see the arrival of not only one sole Jewish Messiah but of 144,000 friends, who might be naturally leaded by one of them that our older brothers in faith the Jews will call Messiah.

The meaning the Christians put in the word messiah is quite different from the meaning the Jews put in it. I already discussed that but will say it again. The Christian belief of the second coming of Jesus, (or should we call him Messiah ben Joseph), does not negate the arrival of other personages, that is written down even in the Canonical books the Christianity accepts, in the book of Revelation.

We should stop thinking of the earth as the only rock in the space, or some banned zone in the Universe that no one can arrive or depart from it. The whole Bible is filled with examples how that is not the case. Read Ezekiel 1. There is no problem whatsoever if more people come, as it is written they will, long before the Great Trib and Second Coming of Jesus as we the Christians expect him.

I think it is also too early for the Manchild to come, who appears later in the Revelation, but I might be wrong. I already pointed your attention at the fact the war in heaven between the birth of the manchild and the casting down satan to earth, may take quite a long. Having in mind it is a war between star systems, 1/3 controlled by the devil. 1/3 out of ...how many trillions, is quite a number is it not? We may have centuries between these two events. Morevoer the Manchild is not said to be born on earth, rather near the moon (the feet of the woman) may be on space orbit, and he is not brought down to earth but taken up to God. Whether and when he arrives on earth if at all, I don't know. Or who he is, I don't know. I know he cannot be baby Jesus because baby Jesus was not taken up to God rather grew up on earth 33 years. Such obvious mismatch between the texts (in this case the canonical text!) and its "traditional" interpretation come to show how far the church fathers were from the truth even in the so much trimmed canonical parts of the holy books.

It is a time to make difference! Hope and pray pope Francis finally makes it. We may want to think of someone better to come, but frankly the time is so short that we don't have the time for a new election before all starts rolling. The Jewish year expires on October 2, 2016, and by then the Jewish messiah should be announced, perhaps a month before that. If the Jewish top rabbi that are equal to top cardinals or more, are relevant in their assessment of prophecy. I believe they are, in all their honesty and respectful knowledge. Because they sound as someone who has already seen and therefore talks, and not as someone who dreamed of something. The Jewish Messiah is here, and therefore so are the 144,000 young innocent Jews. It is up to us, the 2.5 bln Christians, should we acknowledge in them the Revelation 7 or should we prefer to buy into "doctrines of end times" that twist the prophecies and actually send us straight into the dead end road of history.

What are you talking about? All is unfolding exactly as prophesied in the Bible. You should try reading it some time.

Some of the characteristics of the last days as told by Jesus.
1) The love of most would grow cold.
2) There would be a great apostasy of the faith.
3) The faith would become scarce on the face of the earth.
4) That people would choose satan as their messiah rejecting him.
5) That horrible trials would come.
6) That a one world government would arise under antichrist.
7) That Jesus would come externally to overthrow the antichrist and set up his kingdom.

The kingdom of God is within you and advances through peoples hearts and the Holy Spirit. The true faith has always been a bottoms up not a top down organization. Satans kingdom is tyrannical and top down by comparison. Unless you are an amillennialist or a dominionist.

a reply to: SevenThunders

where are the preconditions of that fulfilled? Where are the 2-3 asteroids falling in the Revelation BEFORE the Beast system to be introduced? And, again and again, where are the 144,000 young Jews who are sealed by God?

Those doomsday prophets who predict we are in the End times already, they should be called false prophets. Jesus warned not to go after them. They screwed up the holy scripture, that part of it that reached our days. They will make the Christians to reject the salvation way of God, given thru the 144,000 as corrective of the corrupt system of the old Church, and by doing that, to face the coming beast system. IMO it will take hundreds years for the War in Heaven/Universe, therefore their children's children will face it, but who knows. What we have as End times scenario by most of the Churches, is faked one. As the books were faked, so is the doctrine, so is the end times scenario.
In order to have scores of martyrs and/or fearful masses who would reject those sent by God messengers of hope.

That below didn't happen yet. And it happens BEFORE the Beast system and even before the war in heaven/universe!!! I can read as much, dear Seven Thunders!

Revelation 8

7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11 the name of the star is Wormwood.[a] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.

12 The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.


The 144,000 come BEFORE the trumps and before the 3 or more asteroids to struck the Earth!


Revelation 7
7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Why should the author of the Revelation take his time to name each tribe, and didn't say simply, 144,000 of all tribes? Because he wants us to be absolutely sure those young people will come from Israeli tribes, one by one, to have Zero doubt about it!
According to the reactions of some posters who demonize the chosen people of God, I can see the author of the Apocaypse was right to mention them so meticulously!

The Catholic Church as the sole biggest Christian denomination with clear hierarchical structure, let alone its history, has two ways ahead of it:

1. Either to accept the appointment of God who seals thru the angel those 144,000 young Jews for the times we are living in, and therefore the Church to appoint them as correctives to the already corrupt system, let say something as overseeing "cardinals" above the existing system of bishops,

2. Or to stay aside of the process that is now driven by God himself, and isolate itself, thus proving its futility in history.

I not only believe the expected Jewish messiah (in their terminology) will be one of the 144,000 (in Christian terminology), but also that there will be more anointed people from them to come soon under his guidance. Because obviously one of them will lead the rest, there might be other levels between themselves.

There will be always fanatics who will demonize them and who will refuse to see God's action today, quoting centuries old fathers and new end time scenarios. All you need to do is to sit down and read Revelation 7, that obviously has to occur before Revelation 8 (asteroids), before Revelation 12 (war in heaven), and before Revelation 13 (beast system). That is a long way to go. I don't know whether the earthly measured years wil suffice, or the life will be prolonged so we can witness all of that.

Whatever it is, we see the 144,000 again in Revelation 14 already on secure location on Mt Zion, outside of the reach of the beast system, singing unknown song to God and the Lamb. If we are talking of period of time surpassing the current lifespan (that is logical to assume for the war in heaven/universe) then those 144,000 young men will have lifespan much longer, fit for their mission. Or we all will have it, I don't know, in order to fulfil the promise of Jesus of the last generation.

a reply to: 2012newstart

It is not Yeshua's fault that we humans fail time and time again to take personal responsibility. The real teachings of Yeshua is simply pure genius. It is summed up in this video below.

What is summed up is so simple, yet people fail to apply it to themselves. At one point we must ask ourselves, how many of these laws has we, as individuals did we break?

Lets remove christianity and all religions from the picture. Since its mostly a distraction and go back to the basics that spawned all religions instead.

Honestly I would love to live in a world described in the video below. Heaven of earth, while being free from tyranny and trusted enough to take personal responsibility... one can only dream.

Even if you are an atheist, you can clearly see, that these laws is simply the voice of reason and common sense. So please take a moment and click play. I truly believe that our father is merciful and want what all parents want for their children.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: ReAppollonius

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: ReAppollonius
a reply to: Raggedyman

That was just one thing I have always been curious about, that and the two deaths of Judas Iscariot.

What two deaths of Judas? He died once, he hung himself on a cliff.

I guess you could assume the unlikely scenario that judas hung himself AND fell headlong and burst asunder but they aren't connected by the person telling the story they are different accounts with different results, different deaths.

If you say both happened and together you are making a connection that is an assumption.

One account doesn't mention a hanging
The other leaves out falling and bursting for no apparent reason.

Neither are minor details and by having two writers tell different endings without making any possible way to tell if it is two contradictions or not and if so which is true leads people to make the assumption you have made but it is not supported by the Bible.

It's one death, Judas hung himself. When he was cut down he burst from the bloating. He would not have been touched on Passover or the day after because it was a weekly Sabbath. So it's the same death, one writer is telling that Judas killed himself by hanging, the other writer is talking about what happened to the body when it fell.

Like I said you COULD make that assumption.

Key words being YOU, COULD, ASSUME (assumption).

But it is an assumption and not how it reads. At all.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Personally I find that assumption very pedestrian and lacking in thought. It sounds like basic preacherman spew to me. guarantee that you can not prove that the two accounts, different accounts telling a different tale, are connected.

Scripture doesn't say what you are, it gives two accounts that don't fit unless you force them to by dropping all critical thinking. People don't hang themselves and then spontaneously combust, it just doesn't happen and the argument your using is the "standard" for the average preacher to make something make sense.

Only it makes no sense.

originally posted by: Ove38

originally posted by: ReAppollonius

originally posted by: Ove38

originally posted by: ReAppollonius

originally posted by: Ove38
The kingdom of God on earth is God's rule on earth. It's not a particular place, only a administration. God's will being done on earth ! That's all.

If you say so.

But...earth IS a place and so is God's Kingdom. You seem focused on the acceptance of the tyranny of Yahweh than the actual Kingdom of God as Christ explains it.

A Kingdom by definition is more than a set of tyrannical rules or Rule. Kingdoms are vast hierarchies with rulers and sub rulers....

No, its not a place ! Jesus Christ and his co-rulers, hold the administration of God, that is the kingdom of God, its not a place ! The rule is not tyrannical, but kind, compassionate and full of love.

If it is not a place you can't go to it so if you are somewhere (everywhere) than you can't be at "not a place" which deprives the Kingdom of God of its meaning in the form of a location.

If the Kingdom is not a place it can't be here or there, within or without. But Jesus does say that the Kingdom of God is within and without and without is a place. The Kingdom of God is everywhere and nowhere isn't the Kingdom of God.

You reduce the Kingdom to a set of rules or even feelings which is not its ordained purpose. You are in the Kingdom of God right now and will be when you get to Heaven as on earth.

Who said anything about "a set of rules or feelings" The Kingdom of God is just a form of rule, that you can participate in, like Jesus Christ did. Its not a place.

When Jesus was standing in the midst of the crowd. The kingdom of God (that is the rule of God) was in their midst (among them)

I believe it was you who said that.

originally posted by: Ove38

originally posted by: 2012newstart
Yes, Jesus clearly says the Kingdom of God must come, .....

Luke 17:20 "Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ "

It's not a place somewhere ! It's just a form of rule (governing)

See?

a reply to: Ove38

The Kingdom of God is an all encompassing statement of God saying "Do you see this? This is my Kingdom."

If it exists it exists within the Kingdom of God, not one specific place or a set of rules but an abstract expression telling you where you are and where you are going.

Like Jesus said, the Kingdom is within and without, both are places, locations whatever you want to call them they are more than a form of rule or rules, law or legislation.

It's here, it's there, it's everywhere!

a reply to: 2012newstart

I always thought it a bit creepy that the church considers itself the "Bride of Christ" and much prefer to have Mary Magdalene as his "wife" even if it goes against doctrine you have Apocryphal texts where it is stated they used to kiss on the mouth he and loved her more than all his disciples.

The Church doesn't like the Apocrypha but I do and I don't need it spelled out that they had a relationship that was more important than Rome would allow a woman to have and destroyed the original texts that would have had the story of Miriam Magdala, the true Bride of Christ, son of Joseph of Aramithea and another Miriam called the virgin.

Romes old religion had the vestal virgins that were esteemed so the new religion has the Virgin, Mother of God(?).

The prophecy used to validate the virgin birth was a mistranslation and simply doesn't apply to the Messiah so Rome started off a bit confused and remains confused.

originally posted by: 2012newstart
Moreover, the Churches should adopt a new doctrine (not necessarily a new dogma) dealing with the 144,000 innocent Jews who appear in the Revelation twice. They come before not after the Great Trib. IMO they come as corrective of the system. The idea of the Roman Catholicism that they represent the unmarried priesthood, is absurd. Let alone how clean the priesthood is. The priesthood never played the role the 144,000 of the Revelation...

The 144,000 are kings and priests (priesthood) only 12 000 are Jews (the tribe of Judah) and yes they are unmarried.

originally posted by: ReAppollonius
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Personally I find that assumption very pedestrian and lacking in thought. It sounds like basic preacherman spew to me. guarantee that you can not prove that the two accounts, different accounts telling a different tale, are connected.

Scripture doesn't say what you are, it gives two accounts that don't fit unless you force them to by dropping all critical thinking. People don't hang themselves and then spontaneously combust, it just doesn't happen and the argument your using is the "standard" for the average preacher to make something make sense.

Only it makes no sense.

I never said he spontaneously combusted, re-read what I said. I said he hung himself and wouldn't have been cut down until Sunday. For the same reason Jesus was rushed into the tomb, any Jew touching them would be ritually unpure for the feast days then the weekly Sabbath. A dead body becomes very bloated in the sun, cutting it down would make it burst when it hit the ground. Judas hung himself, when he was cut down his body burst open.

a reply to: ReAppollonius and to all

well I don't know that part of history but apparently pagan Rome influenced the early Christianity.
I believe Mother Mary was a virgin.

God has given us more than we need, along with the knowledge that the books were rewritten. Or better said, written for a first time 200 years after the Apostles, using sagas and also using cunning deceit on part of those who set up traps for generations to come. Still we have more than enough to believe in the Good God, and I underline Good. Not a theology that would glorify someone who practically longs for our suffering, sacrifice of entire lifespan. This is not the belief in the Good God.

The humanity is at the level of its development when it should make a conscious and informed choice. I don't know whether that choice will be a religious motivated one, or otherwise. One cannot keep choosing the negativism shown in history, and to expect to inherit the new earth the Bible talks about, or the land of the living that king David sings about.

The religious leaders could have adopted a better view after all those centuries. There isn't anymore the danger the people wouldn't grasp it because of their illiteracy or short mind, as it were in the Middle ages. Now the evidence is in the open public internet space that practically everyone could reach (although many prefer not to inform themselves and in all do not care of religion that much). There is a responsibility together with the religious titles.

One of the biggest errors of Christian doctrine was to double cross the Jewish people and their mission. Today we see the Jewish people and their wise spiritual leaders come on the world scene with a universal message of hope towards every human. That magnanimous attitude have nothing to do with religious antagonism shown so often by Christians against the Jews during so many centuries, to say the least. It is a time we the common Christians to accept the opportunity and acknowledge that God promised to our father in Faith Abraham promises that cannot be cancelled by anyone. Jesus didn't come to cancel it, rather to prove it. If we are to talk of the real Jesus who walked the earth. It is absurd to contradict Jesus to his own people all the time, only because some leadres in Christian history decided to be so. Jesus wouldn't approve that in first place. He was and is a Jew. So practically we have a Jewish Lord who came to the whole world to know God's revelations




As I lengthily explained, the 144,000 are coming after Jesus and before the end times beast. So is the Manchild whom it would take me much more time and therefore I wouldn't be able to write about in the current format of posts, beyond of what I already wrote in this and other threads. We have the reality of post-Jesus era with promised coming Jewish personages, not only Enoch, Elijah and Melchisedek (according to the authentic Dead Sea Scrolls, yet another setback for the official doctrine). I will say it may be for the last time here: we have not one or 5 but 144 thousand Jewish innocent people sealed by God who are about to come one way or another. And some Christians shut themselves from God's action written wel in the Canonical book! Perhaps those kids who sing so beautifully in the Jewish language, are among those 144,000 chosen ones!

There should be a new doctrine of the Catholic church about the so called End times. What we have are centuries old interpretations that do not reflect the Bible. The fearful image of the antichrist is introduced, instead of elaborating on the image of the BEAST talked by John's Apocalypse. Because the beast is also a system, a kingdom. And if we refer to the prophecy of Daniel, it is a kingdom not of this world, unlike any previous kingdom. Daniel likens them to known animals, while the 4th beast of iron is unknown animal. Therefore Daniel asks the Angel to describe ONLY that beast, because it is the unknown and unseen beast, not the other three that while being fearful are not something unseen on earth.

Is the 4th beast of Daniel (beast of revelation) an image of a yet to come kingdom of hostile extraterrestrial power on Earth?
Be it draconians, be it transformers made of metal, or some others, I don't know. it seems to me we deal with extra- terrestrial phenomenon here.

And while the Angels are also technically extra- terrestrial beings, they apparently know well their adversaries in other star systems and told Daniel about them in visions that cannot be compared to anything seen on Earth, be it human or animal.

In that way, the Church doctrine dating back tens of centuries, should be updated. Not one apostate to be envisioned as the center of all evil, such as Julian the Apostate the Roman emperor, or anyone like him. Rather a hostile off-world power with their emissaries and surely their imposed king should be envisioned as Revelation 13 beast system.

Where is in that description any reference to the 144,000 innocent young Jews that appear much earlier in Revelation 7? And why there are still non-thinking Christians who pretend to understand prophecy in detail but actually profane it, who say the Jews elect will be the beast? Don't they make difference between people sent and anointed by God the almighty, and "people" sent by satan? If the common people can't make that difference, the Church leaders can and must make it! The sooner the better for everyone.

Again... it is not Yeshua's fault that humanity chose to corrupt and live in lawlenessness. Yeshua is real and so is God.

But if you really are searching for answers. Then I suggest watching this revelation:



You will understand why things are the way they are.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: ReAppollonius
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Personally I find that assumption very pedestrian and lacking in thought. It sounds like basic preacherman spew to me. guarantee that you can not prove that the two accounts, different accounts telling a different tale, are connected.

Scripture doesn't say what you are, it gives two accounts that don't fit unless you force them to by dropping all critical thinking. People don't hang themselves and then spontaneously combust, it just doesn't happen and the argument your using is the "standard" for the average preacher to make something make sense.

Only it makes no sense.

I never said he spontaneously combusted, re-read what I said. I said he hung himself and wouldn't have been cut down until Sunday. For the same reason Jesus was rushed into the tomb, any Jew touching them would be ritually unpure for the feast days then the weekly Sabbath. A dead body becomes very bloated in the sun, cutting it down would make it burst when it hit the ground. Judas hung himself, when he was cut down his body burst open.

What???!!!

That doesn't happen ever. Obviously you can't die twice and either he hung himself or he fell and burst which sounds like he took a header off a cliff to be honest.

Either way what you just proposed is a weak theory that the Bible doesn't support in any way. You don't leave out important details and one tale of his death is different than the other with no way to reconcile them. You are just saying you think that is what happened which is fine I could care less but honesty and common sense says two people wrote down two different accounts of his death and one has to be wrong. Mental gymnastics is not a pious attribute honesty to logic is way more virtuous than blind (in the dark) faith.