People's Daily Online: Civil Discourse in China in the Streets and at the Keyboard

I just wanted to draw the attention of members and readers to an article in the "Op-Ed" section of the People's Daily Online, concerning picketing of a KFC outlet in China over the ongoing South China Sea dispute between China, its Southeast Asian neighbors and the United States.

en.people.cn...

What I found interesting is the discussion of patriotism in China and an attempt to lay out what intelligent patriotism is as opposed to silly and irrational patriotism. In the West we have a long tradition of peaceful political activism and protest. Of course things get out of control from time to time, but people in the West and authorities in the West are generally familiar with what ought to be done and ought to be allowed.

In the emerging liberalized environment of China, things like the parameters of legitimate protest are in the process of being defined and word about those parameters is being spread. This is a wonderful thing. It shows that Chinese leaders are being responsive to the legitimate needs of their own loyal citizenry to express themselves and also to encouragement from Western leaders not to be afraid to loosen up a little and open themselves to legitimate criticism from the public.

These signs of improvement in civil discourse ought to be welcomed wholeheartedly by the West. We should be patient about the pace of social processes occurring in China and also in Russia. These societies have their own inherent nature. They are not "hot house" tomatoes that can be forced to ripen. They might not even be tomatoes. If we let them ripen in their own way, we might find that they are a different kind of product entirely and something that enriches the variety of life on this planet.

If you do go to the linked article, be sure to check out the comments in the section below, where you will find some very intelligent and almost ATS worthy shrewdness in the discussion.

a reply to: ipsedixit

Protests in China are usually sanctioned by the Communists Party. If the Party approves, protests are not cracked down upon, even if they becomes a bit out of control (enemies of the state are sometimes beatened up by "protesters" while authorities looked on or joined in).

a reply to: ipsedixit

I've noticed this when reading Chinese news sites, there are always polls to every story that allow the people to have a voice in what or how such things should be handled. Those things are taken into account and as the public sentiment changes so does the bureaucracy that serves them... of course this is something I've noticed taking place the past couple of years and it seems to be having a positive effect, and allowing more dialog than no one listening and all comments are just attacks on any and everything because no one is listening like occur at and on many news sites here in the US to the extent that many have just nixed or heavily moderate the comments to fit or mirror the message of the news agency itself and the rhetoric it wants to encourage.

But that's been my observation. The China Sea issue in my opinion is there are a whole lot of people in China and a ton of exporting and importing of goods and that also requires a whole lot of food source space that comes from the sea and water space for the trading... speaking of billions of people served on a daily basis...

I think they would do well with fish farming to ease the need for sea space, that is if the soil hasn't been overly contaminated by land based industry.

One of the major issues with island forming is they are not sustainable with the sea levels rising... if one looks at google earth at the man made islands in the middle east they are already being reclaimed by the sea there, not to mention the natural ones disappearing that have gone under or not reported at all.

There's an expected 1 meter global rise within the next 15-20 years.

a reply to: joemoe

Yes, you are quite right about this, but I still think there is cause for hope. There is a Buddhist story about a very stingy man who was told by his spiritual friend that he ought to cultivate generosity. Unfortunately the stingy man just could not bear the thought of taking money from his pocket and handing it over to someone else. The spiritual advisor said he should try taking the money out of one pocket and transferring it to another pocket first and practice moving the money from one pocket to the other and back again and then try giving money to a poor person.

After much effort along that line the stingy man eventually developed the quality of intelligent generosity. I think things in China will be a little bit like that for a while.

originally posted by: ipsedixit
In the emerging liberalized environment of China, things like the parameters of legitimate protest are in the process of being defined and word about those parameters is being spread. This is a wonderful thing. It shows that Chinese leaders are being responsive to the legitimate needs of their own loyal citizenry to express themselves and also to encouragement from Western leaders not to be afraid to loosen up a little and open themselves to legitimate criticism from the public.

Liberalized? compared to what? North Korea?
Its a protest against some symbol against the US..it is 100% backed by the government as its a pro government "protest". Its hard to shut down a demostration where people are holding banners saying they love you and hate your opposition.

If it was the opposite demonstration..if people were protesting Chinas aggressive and unfair open waterways claims that is stoking tension in the area, that protest would be shut down in a instant, and many of its leaders would be in prison..for perhaps decades

(sidenote: If going to china..its safe, you're fine..just dont go in and try to join or start any anti-government rallys and its all christmas..do that and you will see the dark side of a quasi-communist country)

These signs of improvement in civil discourse ought to be welcomed wholeheartedly by the West.

When there is signs of free speech, I will personally be quite pleased..for now, this isn't a sign of that...this is a sign that Chinas government likes adoring fans.

We should be patient about the pace of social processes occurring in China and also in Russia. These societies have their own inherent nature.

I agree with that, but to be honest, I think they are slipping deeper into their own bunker. every year their internet gets more closed, they crack down more on vpns, etc..they are strengthening their control verses moving towards liberty. the frog in a slow boil water is whats happening there, and thats depressing because it is developing quickly, but without liberty, it is inherently retarded in its potential...and if it gets worse, they will sabotage their own potential just so the few in power can keep a iron fist control.

And that sucks because the chinese people themselves are deserving of more.

originally posted by: SaturnFX

Liberalized? compared to what? North Korea?

They are liberalized compared to themselves decades ago. They have discarded Maoism and liberalized their economy. This is not democracy but any successful attempt to industrialize and compete in the world economy is at the least conducive to the growth of a meritocracy and to democratic tendencies that are integral to industrial efficiency.

China has come a long way since the Cultural Revolution. One could make the argument that China has always been a warlord dominated society, a feudal society and is so to this day, but modified by mercantile initiatives. I think democracy is inevitable for China, but not in the near future.

Its a protest against some symbol against the US..it is 100% backed by the government as its a pro government "protest". Its hard to shut down a demostration where people are holding banners saying they love you and hate your opposition.

I agree, but the tenor of the People's Daily article goes beyond a slam of the American position on affairs in the South China Sea. It is a discussion of Chinese patriotism and an encouragement to rational patriotism. I see that as a movement toward the acknowledgement and acceptance of the fact that public opinion is important in the society. It goes beyond simply encouraging them to punch in at the factory on time every day.

If it was the opposite demonstration..if people were protesting Chinas aggressive and unfair open waterways claims that is stoking tension in the area, that protest would be shut down in a instant, and many of its leaders would be in prison..for perhaps decades

Point taken. Similarly for those Chinese citizens agitating against the government, against the communist party and for the dawning of democracy in China. The authorities are very fearful of this sort of agitation. I don't think they quite understand how an oligarchy can maintain dominance and still allow political activity, as is done in the West.

Perhaps the American option, the importation of large quantities of drugs into the country and the imprisonment of a very large number of people, has been rejected by them, or perhaps they are delaying this development for other reasons, but will eventually get to it.

When there is signs of free speech, I will personally be quite pleased..for now, this isn't a sign of that...this is a sign that Chinas government likes adoring fans.

I thought that some of the comments at the bottom of the article were not bad, including the one that suggested that KFC had been chosen for the demonstration because the franchise was up for sale and someone was trying to drive the price down.

. . . I think they are slipping deeper into their own bunker. every year their internet gets more closed, they crack down more on vpns, etc..they are strengthening their control verses moving towards liberty. the frog in a slow boil water is whats happening there, and thats depressing because it is developing quickly, but without liberty, it is inherently retarded in its potential...and if it gets worse, they will sabotage their own potential just so the few in power can keep a iron fist control.

This is very possible. It might lead to a behind the curtain shake up. I don't think there is a single Chinese oligarch who wants to see development in China retarded in any way, even at the risk of continued liberalization. If there is such a person, I think he will be moved to a position on the chessboard where he can do the least harm possible.

And that sucks because the chinese people themselves are deserving of more.

They, like their bothers and sisters around the globe, are awesome people.

edit on 21-7-2016 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)

Internet glitch:

See below.

Internet glitch:

Note: My own fault. BB code error.

When there is signs of free speech, I will personally be quite pleased..for now, this isn't a sign of that...this is a sign that Chinas government likes adoring fans.

I thought that some of the comments at the bottom of the article were not bad, including the one that suggested that KFC had been chosen for the demonstration because the franchise was up for sale and someone was trying to drive the price down.

. . . I think they are slipping deeper into their own bunker. every year their internet gets more closed, they crack down more on vpns, etc..they are strengthening their control verses moving towards liberty. the frog in a slow boil water is whats happening there, and thats depressing because it is developing quickly, but without liberty, it is inherently retarded in its potential...and if it gets worse, they will sabotage their own potential just so the few in power can keep a iron fist control.

This is very possible. It might lead to a behind the curtain shake up. I don't think there is a single Chinese oligarch who wants to see development in China retarded in any way, even at the risk of continued liberalization. If there is such a person, I think he will be moved to a position on the chessboard where he can do the least harm possible.

And that sucks because the chinese people themselves are deserving of more.

They, like their bothers and sisters around the globe, are awesome people.

Well, it seems free speech is being determined by all the polling itself, in seeing how the country wants to move.

The way the bureaucracy has been, when power to the people meant giving it all completely over to the government in a sort of consensual martial law, it became a cultural revolution instead of a civil war... not to say such didn't have it's detractors and still do. But that meant holding any and every system under a microscope and slowly easing power back out and to systems that actually work and function for the entire society itself. If one looks at government then it is actually supposed to work for the people on a whole, and not just certain systems or capitalizations looking to hold massive amounts of power or sway over people that does not benefit society just those vying for holding and maintaining that power or sway over those masses for whatever reasons.

Of course being under such consensual martial law a lot was given up in the name of extreme order to implement all the tasks that required being done or carried out... all the subversive materials to disseminate discrimination were purged and as all the systems got reformed and on track those systems that were once subversive to restoring order and control to the people are slowly being given back and the voice of the people being the driving force in such polling of allowance, as all the major systems that needed controlling and efficiency to actually serve the people properly has been accomplished, those systems are then trickled back out since that order has been restored.

So of course what most of the West saw was communism frozen in time, where power to the people meant a controlled martial law where power wasn't given back. Well, in the West we can see what happened immediately after the civil war, when Southern Wealth started buying out sentiments trying to recapitialate on the new guidelines in vying for power and corruption that has lead to much of the issues our government still faces in inequality of not only slaves but women and children's rights as well in the act of breeding that same bigotry into society as much as possible to maintain certain power and in turn authority over people whether its in equality or not using the very freedoms we have against ourselves to do it like freedom or speech and the right to bare arms, while whipping public sentiment into a frenzy that reformation means removing all ones voice and rights...

Well, for the US to function it needs reform in every single aspect from top to bottom, and of course the entrenched that have power or are vying for it keep it all spinning in utter chaos and the division of everyone by every little tiny thing is forcing us to hold each other under microscopes of discrimination instead of those doing the dividing as the focus has become on those perpetuating the dividing by pushing buttons of traditional this that or the other to whip such public sentiment to a certain side... when the end result only benefits those unseen capitalizing on all the chaos discord and confusion as all the public sentiment on either side makes money based on the stock markets and no one plays them by political party unless using that parties sentiment to whip up such frenzies... so one decrying guns increases the sales but both parties will buy or sell stock in them regardless of ideology or those being used to whip people into such frenzies.

It's a viscous circle and it is a corrupt circle... and if you aren't in the know with a wink and a nod, then you'd be wholly ignorant as to what I just lay out of how it works. Now you too can be a power broker, whether you use this to illicit change or make some yourself is the dividing line... and thats the issue with capitalism. Dog eat dog is much worse a practice than human eat dog when seen from such a perspective... at least one of the parties isn't a cannibal in such exchanges within the market.

originally posted by: ipsedixit
They are liberalized compared to themselves decades ago. They have discarded Maoism and liberalized their economy.

Thanks for the long and thoughtful replies.
I will just leave it as saying I have hope for China that they will start developing along the same lines as japan, but with a healthy dose of skepticism given those in power are going to fight to remain that way..
But it may be like the tide slowly wearing away at the cliff, every wave chipping more and more until it buckles under its own weight and liberty is achieved.

I think the internet is key to all of it. If America wanted to do the most good / harm..it would be to stick a satellite right over china and give the entire nation free unrestricted broadband internet...then let the people assemble themselves.