Medieval Blacks & Racism

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
Firstly I'm not a sir and secondly I'm not your country and thirdly I'm not even remotely part of your home grown race issue

The little girl Sarah had no choice? You're quite correct he choices were go with Forbes to England and live or be burned alive in the tomb of her ancestors.

White people have never accepted being ruled by blacks? Again probably correct and blacks haven't accepted being ruled by whites either but then again no-one on the planet actually "likes" to be ruled

I've already said if you could be bothered reading the posts that the Kings & Queens of Europe were black and those that weren't had black ancestry

Black contributions are not erased from history, if they were I wouldn't have been able to find them. I have listed black Generals, Knights, Princesses mentioned artists composers philosophers. Again please read

Prior to this "thousand year war for domination" no sure which war you refer to exactly has it not occurred to you that the Moors & Mohammed in particular did exactly the same in order to conquer Europe?

You see everything cuts both ways but how does that from over 1000 yrs ago affect blacks in America today exactly?

Gee Dude calm down i guess i would address this one at a time. First this history thing. If our slave masters didn't allow us to read or write and when they did allow us the right they gave us substandard materials and schools. See the school systems in this country don't teach about black kings and queens, as a matter of fact you were only taught the accomplishments of white people, wonder what that will do for your psyche? You don't have to go and dig for white accomplishments, it's taught up front not hidden. If blacks haven't accepted white rule why haven't we uprised and killed you? We are so sick we don't want to leave you. You say you're the greatest country on earth and everyone wants to come here? Even the people you claim as your enemy live here in peace. Have they accepted white rule? Next Islam was a way of life even before Muhammad came . Islam is a way of life not a religion. Blacks were in europe before the white man so how would the Moors and Muhammad have a need to conquer europe? You might say Muhammad didn't allow the spread of Constantines Christianity into East Asia. Separation is the only answer.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport
It's been observed that Spanish America was much more relaxed about intermarriage between black and white than Anglo-Saxon America.
I wonder if this has to do with the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism?
Is it that the Protestant colonists already had a bad conscience about holding humans as slaves, and the only way they could justify it in their own minds was to develop the idea that black people were inferior, less human?
Whereas the Catholics of Latin America had not escaped the more medieval view that "slavery happens, no shame involved in holding slaves or being a slave".

At the same time, to this day Latin America is incredibly racist, ESPECIALlY based on skin tone. They have a far more complex labeling system for every level of skin tone

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14
OK, so my theory evidently breaks down on the ground. Back to the drawing-board.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Thanks for that. I admit I had no idea regarding latin America

a reply to: Beenready2go

See the school systems in this country don't teach about black kings and queens, as a matter of fact you were only taught the accomplishments of white people, wonder what that will do for your psyche? You don't have to go and dig for white accomplishments, it's taught up front not hidden.

The schools system in the UK don't teach about black Kings & Queens either but then again until this last 50yrs or so it has only just been discovered through various techniques that many were in fact actually black. Race & colour were not an issue in the past so were not talked about written down etc. The history taught normally depends on the country you live in. Thats a fact. If I lived in Russia I'd be taught Russian history not English history same goes wherever you reside. I have discovered however that there are various universities and colleges in America that now have specific African culture classes which DO teach African history etc, so sorry but that is no longer a valid excuse for today's behaviour and attitudes in my mind.

It should also be remembered that the generations of today are not African and most probably never have been. Those that have some African ancestory have the freedom to research it the same as everyone else. I'm English but I was brought up in North Africa I was taught both African & English history which is quite intermixed but when I came to England I was taught only English history from 1st WW onwards. Its not a conspiracy its just what happens and whatever the curriculum is.

If blacks haven't accepted white rule why haven't we uprised and killed you?

We were discussing white rule in the distant past and there were many an uprising against it. EVERYONE should accept the rule of the country they were either born into or emigrated to without exception. That is one of the problems facing Europe and the migrant crisis now but that's another story for another thread. The kids of say Missouri University are born and bred Americans. They aren't Africans. They have not been brought up to tug the forelock and call all whites "massah" they have been brought up as Americans with all the advantages & disadvantages that brings. In many ways it could be said that they have potentially more rights freedoms and opportunities than whites in some areas. They have positive action or discrimination as some put it, they have their own support groups i.e. Black Police Union, Black Students Union, there are bursaries scheme scholarships and opportunities just for blacks, its down to them if they take advantage of that or not. Many do and have and as a result are extremely successful but are looked down on by their own. There are many videos etc online that show what happens to blacks that don't agree with the meme of the day and how they are considered sell outs.

Separation is the only answer

Seriously? After all the struggle for freedom (particularly in the USA) after all the struggle in South Africa against such separation? You now advocate segregation again? What possible purpose can that serve? What would you do exactly? Give them a small state to call their own? These are American people for goodness sake not African Americans, its just ridiculous to bring and encourage such divisions in a people and a country. It would be like saying that back in the 17c my ancestors were English therefore I'm not American I'm Anglo-American or Polish-American. Time to stop the divisions not create more

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
The schools system in the UK don't teach about black Kings & Queens either but then again until this last 50yrs or so it has only just been discovered through various techniques that many were in fact actually black.

If you mean European kings and queens, I would be curious to know the names of specific rulers and dynasties, because I fear that "imaginary history" may be rearing its ugly head again.
I have read a lot of mediaeval history; I've got a good mental map of the family trees of the various royal houses (most of them ultimately go back to Germany), and could look up the details of many of the noble houses.
I hope that the "various techniques" you mention don't include making deductions from the images and colours on coats of arms (as implied by a paragraph in the OP). The lions and eagles and griffins which appear on these arms are not meant as portraits of the people who own them, and the same applies to the black men.
Removing distortions in history is a good thing; replacing them with new distortions created by wishful thinking is not a good thing.

a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport

There is an entire book about Thomas Alexandre Dumas entitled The Black Count. I have it. Basically, a lot of Alexandre Dumas's inspiration for his novels came from his father's exploits.

a reply to: DISRAELI

There have been dna & isotope testing on various skeletons which have shown African ancestry
There are coats of arms depicting black nobles throughout Europe
Paintings and the like are much of what historians are going on due to the fact stated previously that race & colour of skin were not recorded as were not seen as important
Noble houses from before the 16th Century don't all start and end in Germany black nobility and black aristocrats seem to have been commonplace (not to be confused with Black Nobility of Italy which is an enitrely different group)
Its not wishful thinking for goodness sake its documented history See Maurice Duke of Saxony for example who is depicted in some images as black and some as white. Many of the Southern Europe Royal Families intermarried with Moors or part Moorish people and others. This was a time of flux and alliances were being made claims to territories being made and migration occurring. Examples lie in artworks of black influences like the ring below. The Shield I showed in the Op one can clearly see a Black Man in armour with an earring. What possible reason could anyone have in those days of painting a coat of arms with a Black man in a prominent position on the crest if it wasn't a black man's crest?



Many Royals and aristocrats at the time were referred to as the Negrito Royalty and were prominent within the Holy Roman Empire. It is claimed that John Lenos Duke of Richmond was in fact black and referred to in a book Called the Secret Services of John MacKay dated around 1733 that the Duke of Richmond had a black complexion . Charles II was referred to as Black Boy and despite later European painters attempts to make him very white, the records show that he was very dark with dark eyes and dark curly hair inherited from his grandmother of the Medici who were also very dark skinned with black African ancestry. Queen Phillipa of England mother of another "black prince" whom the french called Le Noir. She was described by Bishop Stapledon who went to vet her as a future bride & Queen as “The lady whom we saw has not uncomely hair, betwixt blue-black and brown. Her head is cleaned shaped; her forehead high and broad, and standing somewhat forward. Her face narrows between the eyes, and the lower part of her face is still more narrow and slender than the forehead. Her eyes are blackish brown and deep. Her nose is fairly smooth and even, save that is somewhat broad at the tip and flattened, yet it is no snub nose. Her nostrils are also broad, her mouth fairly wide. Her lips somewhat full and especially the lower lip…all her limbs are well set and unmaimed, and nought is amiss so far as a man may see. Moreover, she is brown of skin all over, and much like her father, and in all things she is pleasant enough, as it seems to us.”

I merely wish to show that our perception of blacks all being slaves is quite wrong and history it seems cannot, as it has been presumed, be regarded as accurate. Only as time moves on and new research methods develop and real history come to light. It is ever changing

a reply to: ketsuko

There is indeed which goes to prove my assertions in the Op

a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport

If you really want to understand the situation today, you have to look at the 100 years following the Civil War in which this nation's laws and institutions which treated Blacks (and other minorities) as 3rd class citizens. Jim Crow laws only ended in 1968.... there are plenty of people alive today who were born under and lived under and suffered under those conditions. It's not ancient history. But if you truly want to understand, here are some links to educate yourself:

History’s Lost Black Towns

Black Americans have played a vital role in building this nation. Eager to live and prosper as free people, we have established our own towns since Colonial times. Many of these communities were destroyed by racial violence or injustice, while some just died out.

The Destruction of Black Wall Street

The events that destroyed a thriving Black Oklahoma community 92 years ago were much more than a 'race riot'

America’s Forgotten Mass Lynching: When 237 People Were Murdered In Arkansas

In 1919, in the wake of World War I, black sharecroppers unionized in Arkansas, unleashing a wave of white vigilantism and mass murder that left 237 people dead.

The Truth Behind ’40 Acres and a Mule’[/url

And what happened to this astonishingly visionary program, which would have fundamentally altered the course of American race relations? Andrew Johnson, Lincoln’s successor and a sympathizer with the South, overturned the Order in the fall of 1865, and, as Barton Myers sadly concludes, “returned the land along the South Carolina, Georgia and Florida coasts to the planters who had originally owned it” — to the very people who had declared war on the United States of America.

[url=http://www.hamptoninstitution.org/convictleasesystem.html]Slavery by Another Name: The Convict Lease System

Hence, the act of enslavement itself changed as black convicts were no longer slaves to individual masters, but rather they were enslaved to the companies which they were leased out to. To create this system, there not only had to be the involvement of the Southern judicial system and individual Northern and Southern elites, but also the involvement and reinstitution of slavery within a corporate context.

Debt Slavery: The Forgotten History of Sharecropping

Besides the convict lease system, which kept black people as slaves within the construct of leasing them to corporations, there was also sharecropping, which kept blacks tied to the land they worked. In order to obtain a full understanding of sharecropping, the social, economic, and legal contexts under which sharecropping was instituted must first be examined.

Sundown town

Sundown towns were a form of segregation, in which a town, city, or neighborhood in the United States was purposely all-white, excluding people of other races. These restrictions were enforced by some combination of discriminatory local laws, intimidation, and violence. The term came from signs that were posted stating that people of color had to leave the town by sundown. They are also sometimes known as sunset towns or gray towns.

The Racist Housing Policy That Made Your Neighborhood

The freewheeling opportunity associated with 20th-century California was not available to black residents, and that exclusion reverberates in our neighborhoods and communities today.

1920s–1948: Racially Restrictive Covenants

Used nationwide to prevent people of color from purchasing homes in white communities.

1934–1968: FHA Mortgage Insurance Requirements Utilize Redlining

Race and ethnicity are used to determine mortgage eligibility in communities such as Roxbury, Dorchester and Hyde Park, thus perpetuating housing segregation.

How the 'Black Tax' Destroyed African-American Homeownership in Chicago

Predatory (yet perfectly legal) tax-lien sales were perfected in the city in the 1970s. The crisis continues today.

Examples of Jim Crow laws

List of Jim Crow law examples by state

Black History - From Reconstruction to the Present (US)

THE END OF RECONSTRUCTION (or "The War after the Civil War") AND SEGREGATION BY LAW, a virtual revolution. Before the Civil War ended and immediately after the War, the whites of the Confederate States began a vengeful campaign of murder against the New Afrikans/Blacks.

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
What possible reason could anyone have in those days of painting a coat of arms with a Black man in a prominent position on the crest if it wasn't a black man's crest?

I have already pointed out that coats of arms also included lions and eagles. They were not normally intended as self-portraits.

Verbal descriptions from the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries may be misleading, because of their habit of dividing the complexions of white people into "fair" (meaning"blonde) and "dark" (meaning black-haired or brunette). So a man or a woman might be labelled as "dark" or even "black" simply because they were not blondes with pale complexions. I think the "dark lady of the sonnets" comes into this category. Shakespeare is excusing himself for the fact that he is ignoring contemporary (and modern) fashion by giving his preference to a woman who is not a blonde. He prefers Elizabeth Taylor to Marilyn Monroe.
So descriptions like this should be cited with care, and preferably in conjunction with family trees which might help to explain where negroid blood might have come from. The Italian references are probably reasonable. You could also have cited Ludovico "Il Moro" of Milan.
However, I must repeat that it is not always safe to read too much into the English phrase "he has a dark complexion".

Queen Phillipa of England mother of another "black prince" whom the french called Le Noir. She was described by Bishop Stapledon who went to vet her as a future bride & Queen as “The lady whom we saw has not uncomely hair, betwixt blue-black and brown. Her head is cleaned shaped; her forehead high and broad, and standing somewhat forward. Her face narrows between the eyes, and the lower part of her face is still more narrow and slender than the forehead. Her eyes are blackish brown and deep. Her nose is fairly smooth and even, save that is somewhat broad at the tip and flattened, yet it is no snub nose. Her nostrils are also broad, her mouth fairly wide. Her lips somewhat full and especially the lower lip…all her limbs are well set and unmaimed, and nought is amiss so far as a man may see. Moreover, she is brown of skin all over, and much like her father, and in all things she is pleasant enough, as it seems to us.”

The usual interpretation of "Le Noir" is that they were likening him to the devil because of the way he treated the French population. There is no evidence that the English were calling him "Black Prince" in his own lifetime..
As for the description of Philippa; those colours of hair and eyes are common enough among Europeans. Even the "brown" skin is easily understood as the "olive" complexion type of southern Europe (Spain, Languedoc, Italy, Greece).

I merely wish to show that our perception of blacks all being slaves is quite wrong and history it seems cannot, as it has been presumed, be regarded as accurate. Only as time moves on and new research methods develop and real history come to light. It is ever changing

I understand that you want to tackle a distortion of history. The problem is that this desire tempts people into over-compensating and distorting history in the opposite direction. Politically inspired women and gays fall into the same trap. I would like to warn you against this temptation.

a reply to: Boadicea

I would suggest that's only part of the story. Here's a video where the panel discusses the role political correctness has had on race relations.



For one thing, it has killed humor. We now have comedians who outright refuse to play colleges because the students get outraged by humor rather than laughing at it. One of the highlights of my parents' college years was seeing Bill Cosby (this was before what we now know obviously).



This is a clip from a video game that makes that point. It uses aliens so you won't be offended, but it explains why so many comedians refuse to play at colleges and why so many SJW college kids can't tolerate comedy anymore.

And tying it back to PC. What PC was meant to do was to keep us all from being hurt, well-intentioned enough, but do you think it's possible that instead what it's done is signal to people that if they hear or experience certain things, they should be upset, angry, even outraged whether or not they would have been otherwise?

In other words, someone tells you that "black hole" is a terribly offensive term and even if you never really felt that way before, now you are psychologically primed and ready to be upset whenever you hear it either because you are the group that is supposed to be upset or because you are upset on behalf of that group.

And we've all been told, over and over, that laughter is the best medicine, but now no one can laugh anymore because that's being cruel and hurtful ... hateful. So that outlet, that ability to laugh at ourselves and with others about our foibles and idiosyncracies and differences and the things we think about each other, those stereotypes has been shut off by people who act like this:

a reply to: Boadicea

Thank you I will read up further

However it is not generally those born in the 60's 70's or even 80's that appear to have the problem it is the young and easily manipulated, that is what worries me

a reply to: ketsuko

I agree entirely. Well intentioned pc has gone wayyyy too far and rather than achieving the aim it was intended, has now created the very racism it was intended to prevent. Humour is fading. When you can't laugh at yourselves you are lost. I have always said the vast majority of the people "offended" aren't actually offended but think they should be! I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that sometimes when talking to black people or asian people I'm on eggshells praying I don't screw up and say something that can be misconstrued. So many actively look for something to be offended by

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Boadicea

I would suggest that's only part of the story.

Well... yeah... basically the 100 years after the Civil War. PC has and had nothing to do with systemic racism... much less the violence inflicted upon too many people for too long.

But the obstinate refusal to recognize the injustices of the past is what is made the present possible. If we don't understand how those laws and practices kept the Black man "down," we'll never understand how those laws have been fine-tuned and applied to ALL of us.

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Clearly you don't believe as I that this whole current situation is being cleverly manipulated then? Do you not feel that the blacks of today currently protesting chanting and spewing hatred should take charge of their lives, live up to some of their superb role models, improve their lot themselves and stop the blame game/victimhood? Do you not think that these actions hold them back severely?

Your tone and your agenda behind posting this is condescending and veiled racism. You make gross assumptions that all black people feel like their skin color holds them back in life. That is a fallacious and malicious lie and I'm sick of racists spewing this crap. You are the one spewing hatred right here in this thread, OP.

How many black people do you know in your personal life? People who usually make these blanket statements about black people rarely have any that they are close to in real life, from what I can gather.

Listen here OP. I am black.

I started out in an inner city.

I worked hard in school (THANK GOD, I HAVE TWO BLACK PARENTS THAT PUSHED ME AND GUIDED ME)

I got my diploma, was an A and B student, scored pretty well on my SATs. Got accepted into 4 out of the 6 schools i applied to.

I went to college, I got my bachelors.

After years of hard work, gaining experience, etc, I'm now what you'd consider middle class & trending upwards... with my own home, a very good career on top my own small business. I did not ask for anything. I did not get a handout. I have no children out of wedlock. I am everything opposite of what you, in your NARROW world view, think that black people are. And guess what? There are THOUSANDS of us if not more who can say the same.

I'm going to report this thread to the moderation staff. Your intent behind this was to degrade, stereotype, and condescend. It is not a platform for constructive dialogue.

OP, I suggest you get off of your computer, go out into the world, outside of whatever small town you're from and actually engage and speak with the very same people you have tried to degrade with this thread. You may find yourself surprised.

double post.

a reply to: supremecommander

Huh? hatred? I have no hatred whatsoever! You are looking for something to be offended at when there is totally no need. I am showing that our misconception of whenever black people are mentioned, as being slaves is wrong, that history has been proven wrong in places or obsfucated and that black people played a huge role in the shaping of Europe. How the bloody hell is that racist? Why attack soneone who is attempting to show others our incorrect history? When have I said skin colour is holding anyone back? I said race & skin colour shouldn't be an issue but that attitudes could be holding people back as well as living in the past in fact I go so far as to state that this is intentional by whomever wants to keep the black people of America in the same place as they are for reasons I don't know

I dont' believe you have read my OP in its entirety nor the following on threads. I have been aiming to show that racism was not an issue centuries ago and neither was skin colour. I asked how it happened that such severe racism on both sides came into being and was it not time that it could be put to bed. I have learned much from researching black Europe and believe black people in general have been mislead probably due to the fact that history is often recorded by educated white people. However, I think I have already shown that there was a huge black presence in Europe who were educated accepted and part of society with no stigma. This should be celebrated and made common knowledge and accepted that not all history is true & accurate

a reply to: supremecommander

I'm actually shocked and quite hurt that you would take this entirely out of context. Yes I'm offended..my turn!

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
a reply to: Boadicea

Thank you I will read up further

Good to hear that. I wish it wasn't such unpleasant reading though.

However it is not generally those born in the 60's 70's or even 80's that appear to have the problem it is the young and easily manipulated, that is what worries me

Yes, but that's true of all kids these days... not just Black or minority kids. Garbage in and garbage out.

Back in the 70s, about the time of desegregation of schools and forced bussing, one of my mom's friends was a Black lady and she and my dad used to talk politics quite a bit. She swore there was a systemic effort to destablize and break up the Black family -- which she felt was their greatest strength. I was a teenager at the time, and didn't really understand why she felt that way. But it wasn't my conversation and I never asked. I wish I had paid more attention. Because she saw or sensed something, and I see the same thing happening to ALL families now.

For lack of a better way to say it: Blacks were the guinea pigs, and now that the PTB understand how those laws oppressed and repressed one group, they are being tweaked and twerked and used against us all in many, many ways. PC, BLM, safe spaces... all just a cover... a distraction from what and who is really destroying this nation.

But I don't want to totally derail your thread so I'll stop there!