The Bulletproof Warrior: Training Police to Shoot Without Hesitation

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Both Sycomix and you have a point. It is legal for people in most (if not all) states to protect themselves up to and with lethal force if necessary. While someone taking a swing at you isn't exactly life-threatening (dependent upon what they're swinging at you), officers have a right to defend themselves in a similar manner that civilians do.

That said, you are absolutely right the LEOs are and should be trained to use lethal force as a last resort, and I'm sorry, but if a police officer cannot handle a little hand-to-hand combat and subdue someone without using lethal force (in most cases...please note that I say "a little hand-to-hand"), then they really are not fit to wear the uniform and hold the title of Law Enforcement Officer.

originally posted by: sycomix
a reply to: AMPTAH
The moron reached for a weapon, signed his own death warrant.

He didn't reach for his weapon. He reached for his ID card, which was in his jacket near his weapon.

He informed the officer he had a weapon, just to make sure the officer didn't panic when he saw the weapon as he moved his jacket to get at his ID card, which the officer asked for. He tried to take the precaution of revealing that he had a gun to the officer, so there would be no surprises.

All to no avail, since the officer took that as a possible threat, and shot as soon as he saw the weapon.

What he should have done, and we all know better now, is to refuse to show the officer his ID card, and instead tell the officer the ID card is near his gun, and so he can't reach for it himself lest the officer thinks he's going for his gun instead, as happened in the "Philando Castile" case. The officer might still shoot anyway, thinking the civilian is making up an excuse. The fact is, if you're black, you get shot no matter what you do. That's why blacks run.

White people don't run from cops, they shoot or they stand their ground. They are not afraid to be arrested, because they inherently believe that they have a good chance for justice in the courts. It is the whites that wrote the constitution with the idea that the government must fear the people. The blacks were brought in as slaves, and they are only recently learning to behave more like the whites. They have a long way to go. There are no "WACO TEXAS" compounds of black people. Here and there, we find the isolated revolutionary thinker willing to put his life on the line for the justice he believes in. He is so odd, and out of place, we all think he's just a nut.

a reply to: AMPTAH

Must have missed this post I made, "Reaching for a weapon is not compliance, when I am detained the first thing I do I verbally notify the officer of my weapon while keeping my hands in plain sight, I lay flat on my stomach and allow the officer to remove the weapon. Not hard to figure out. The moron reached for a weapon, signed his own death warrant." That includes reach towards one. VERBALLY notify with hands in plain sight and allow the officer to relieve you of the weapon. I carry everywhere but nookie time and shower time, then my weapon is still on the counter or night stand, funny how I have never been shot.

EDIT: Shot by a cop anyway.

Here are some basics to help people better understand the intricacies. If other LEO's have info to add / correct please do so.


Law Enforcement Use of Force / Subject Resistance Control Continuum - The Basics

Law Enforcement use of force / subject resistance control is based on several factors -
* - The level of resistance encountered.
* - The level of force used to overcome resistance.

There are different diagrams used by departments and on the outside they look different. From a "sliding scale" going from low to high to an overlapping bubble system. The diagram below is generic but gives you an idea of the breakdown.



Some things to note about use of force -
* - An officer does NOT have to start at the bottom and work their way through each level. They may enter at any level that the resistance being encountered is at.
* - Unlike civilians law enforcement has what can be described as a 1+ advantage. This means law enforcement is allowed to lawfully raise their level of force to overcome the level of resistance encountered.
* - The universal standard that the Supreme Court established when reviewing an officers use of force is "what did the officer perceive at the time force was used". 20/20 hindsight is not permissible when reviewing a use of force.
* - When reviewing any use of force the term "Totality of Circumstances" is key.
* - The Supreme Court requires Officers use the least amount of force to overcome the resistance and it also requires LEO's deescalate their use of force at the earliest possible moment.

Totality of Circumstances

When all the factors surrounding an event are taken into account.

I see a lot of people focus on only one aspect of police incidents while ignoring everything leading up to it. Totality of Circumstances requires all relevant info / actions leading up to an event be taken into account along with the incident itself.

This can include but is not limited to -
* - Threats suspects have made.
* - Comments suspects make (I wont be taken alive / I am a black belt in Karate / etc)
* - Prior criminal history if known to the officer.
* - Indicator status of the suspect (IE known to be armed / known to fight with law enforcement / etc).
* - Size disparity between suspect and officer.
* - Number of officers present (the more officers the greater the justification required on use of force).
* - Number of suspects present (the more suspects the lower the justification required on use of force).


Investigation into use of force
If a civilian shoots an individual their is a criminal investigation. Miranda Rights involved.

If a law enforcement officer shoots a person there are 3 investigations.
* - Internal Affairs - Did the officer follow all departmental policies / guidelines / orders issued. Because LEO's operate in a command structure we can be ordered to answer questions. We are read our Garrity Rights -

Garrity rights protect a police officer from incriminating himself. An officer being questioned concerning actions that might lead to a criminal prosecution can invoke these rights. Once he does so, whatever he says will be used only for an internal investigation or administrative purposes, not for prosecution.

IA investigations operate on a reverse of the normal presumed innocent. If we refuse to cooperate with an IA investigation we are considered guilty till proven innocent.

* - Criminal Investigation - Did the officers actions break any laws and was the use of force justified under the law. Miranda Rights apply just like with Civilians.

* - Civil Rights Investigation - 42 USC 1983 governs persons acting under color of law and their actions. When a person is shot by police its considered a seizure under the 4th amendment (thats just 1 example). This is usually civil and can be investigated by the FBI. The goal is to determine if an officers action violated the civil / constitutional rights of a suspect / person.


Because of the conditions police operate under - people lying to law enforcement / people breaking the law / armed individuals / split second decision making / lack of complete information / etc - law enforcement is allowed a certain amount of leeway to compensate. Its why we review situations individually as opposed to one large grouping. 1 incident of an officer involved shooting can be completely different to another officer involved shooting.

What weapons are considered deadly weapons
Most people view only guns as a lethal weapon. Some think it covers only guns and knives. In general the second list, gun and knives, are the accepted view. However, any item and the manner the item is used can be considered a deadly weapon. This goes along with totality of circumstances as well.

While most people don't think about it, a handcuff can be considered a deadly weapon. An unsecured cuff link can penetrate a human skull. A mag light can be used as a blunt instrument. OC Spray / Tasers can be used to incapacitate an officer, exposing his duty weapon.

Almost any item, in the hands of a person wanting to inflict harm, can be considered a deadly weapon based on totality of circumstances.

I will leave it here but if anyone has questions ask. If any LEO's have info to add or see a mistake let me know.

and yes, hesitation can kill an officer.

originally posted by: sycomix
a reply to: AMPTAH

the first thing I do I verbally notify the officer of my weapon while keeping my hands in plain sight, I lay flat on my stomach and allow the officer to remove the weapon..

He was sitting in his car.

The officer was at the window.

The officer shot through the car window.

The scenario of laying flat on the ground didn't even arise.

There was no time for that. And do way to do it.

Besides, he was following the officer's instructions. Show me your ID.

He didn't reach for his gun.

He reached for his ID.

He verbally notified the officer that he had a gun. To be cautious.

It all failed.

Because the officer knew he was profiling a black man, and expected some kind of hostile reaction from the injustice.

So, he shot first. Because in his mind, anyone who was being wronged should be angry and retailiate.

So it's all in the cops "mind".

a reply to: AMPTAH

Failing to keep hands in plain sight!

Allow me to introduce you to the 5 rules of LEO encounter.

1. Shutup
2. Sit Down
3. Keep Hands In Plain Sight
4. OBEY ALL LAWFUL ORDERS
5. Do not resist or run

Dummy broke 1, 3, and 4 so yeah, screw him.

originally posted by: sycomix
a reply to: AMPTAH

Failing to keep hands in plain sight!

Show me your ID.

Magician.

That was the order.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: TheAmazingYeti
"It's not about what's in their hand, it's about what's in their head."

Oh! yes! so if they have a Gun in there head.
Shoot them...

a reply to: TheAmazingYeti

Training, the constant fear of being killed, making split second life or death decisions, and questionable outdated policies has nothing todo with it. Its only about racism.

Police brutality and death never happen towards the white man.

a reply to: interupt42

Bull# I have had a LEO raise his weapon at me more than once, my compliance is why I didn't get shot!

originally posted by: sycomix
a reply to: interupt42

Bull# I have had a LEO raise his weapon at me more than once, my compliance is why I didn't get shot!

I thought what I wrote was so blatantly obvious, that it didn't require a /sarcasm tag

a reply to: interupt42

Must have missed it, my primary gripe with text, no way to catch the inflections.

originally posted by: sycomix
a reply to: interupt42

Must have missed it, my primary gripe with text, no way to catch the inflections.

No worries, crazier things have been said here on ATS and not in a sarcastic kind of way.