A work or die mentality doesn't work. Why we deserve a basic income.

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: HUMBLEONE

I feel ya. And they keep raising the SSI age for us too...which in a way is kind of stealing what we paid into for decades, seeing as we will really be able to get very little benefit from it in the end as our lifespans are getting shorter due to stress.

Why not lower it and let us retire and have some life and let the younger people take over our jobs and paying into the system?

Ahahaha... I like that idea. Get the older people who have worked for 40 or more years out so they can have jobs... but you know, they won't like that because they will have to work for money like we did... LOL

a reply to: infolurker

It just goes to show how literally stupid and/or corrupt those in our government are. They're probably both. One thing they definitely are not is into real solutions to real problems.

Also, I don't agree that the younger generations don't want to work. Most do. But we're clogging up the pipeline, those of us who lost home value, our 401Ks, and so much more.

You labor under a social or corporate contract for decades and *poof* they change the contract on a whim. And you have no voice.

originally posted by: schuyler
Unfortunately, for YOU to get this "Basic Income" requires ME to work.

And for YOU to work you have to produce something that WE purchase....oops.

Have a good long think about the relationship between work and income especially where we have unpaid workers (machines).

Basically capitalism fails.

a reply to: Benicealways

I never said anything about luxury.
The person you describe is someone who could probably do with some human interaction. Even if it is for drinking a coffee and having a chat.
What I think is that some people couldn't handle their new found freedom.
People need a purpose in life and mostly also to connect with other people. Facilitating this interaction could prevent losing these people.
Especially if someone prefers to be alone.

The people who run the world love to sit there and make plans to keep us arguing with one another by making promises and making sure they never really fix anything.

When that doesn't work, most of you will be fighting a war or making weapons and war supplies.

Distracted, Busy and dumb.

Livestock.

What you want is everyone being provided for so that they can help advance the human race. Advancing the human race covers everything from entertainment to constructions, metal working to programming. A comedian provides entertainment for others so they can relax and enjoy. Artists create works that stir the imagination. Doctors help to heal us. Singers and song writers work to entertain us and give us something to express ourselves with.....and the list goes on and on.

All of these things are needed to advance the human race.

Yes, you can create a culture of advancement where everyone understands their place and their importance. Not everyone gets to be an astronaut however, not everyone gets to be a ditch digger either. Will there be a greater number of people that have a better aptitude for construction rather than being a doctor? Maybe, but you won't know until you engage each individual to see what they can accomplish.

Currently, we are a MONEY driven WORLD society.

The first step to fixing the problem is realizing that you have a problem.

The acquisition of wealth is an outdated model for the Human race. What are you going to do about it?

After the Dark, this movie doesn't address the OP but it has some concepts in it that are being discussed:

a reply to: Jonjonj

It's not about them being able to contribute or not.

The fact is, America's prosperity is on the back of the rest of the world.

We have, because they have not.

I think the book 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' may shed some light.

a reply to: GodEmperor

And yet so many here in America truly believe they've earned what they have.

All the while proclaiming the world owes no one nothing.

originally posted by: corvuscorrax
a reply to: GodEmperor

And yet so many here in America truly believe they've earned what they have.

All the while proclaiming the world owes no one nothing.

Yes, we have.

And I owe you nothing.

a reply to: infolurker

Keep believing that.

You're just as entitled as those you hate.

The day may come when this is the norm. But the country can't afford it right now. There is too much difficulty funding the programs we have now, but I certainly see this in our future. The people at the top will have even more of the money than they do now, and they will need to provide for others, or let them die. In some ways, what we already dol.

I don't think they will let everybody die, but only a bare living will be granted.

It won't be the lovely life the OP describes though. It will be everybody shoved into public housing, wearing the same cheap clothes, driving broken down cars, barely having medical needs met, barely having money for gas in the car, when it's running.

That's what it will be like, so it's a mistake to hope it comes soon.

originally posted by: corvuscorrax
a reply to: infolurker

Keep believing that.

You're just as entitled as those you hate.

Wait, I hate because I disagree with providing you an income with my labor? We should work so you don't have to? LOL

You sound like my son-in-laws. Bums want my daughters to work and support them while they take "useless classes" or work only a part time job that they "enjoy" and want me to pay their bills when they have an emergency.

Pay your own way! Get off your duff and get a job. Stop asking for a free ride. We do not owe you anything because you REFUSE to do what it takes to provide for yourselves.

Need job skills, join the military for an MOS that actually pays in the civilian world.... but, but, I don't want to go into the military sniffle!

OK, go into the medical field, that pays coming out the door and you can pay your student loans back (Nurse, Dental Hygienist, Pharmacist, Optometrist, etc.) but, but, that is too much work sniffle!

Well, go for a trade like plumber, electrician, etc.... but, but, that is dirty hard work sniffle!

OK precious, what do you want to do then?

I want to get paid well for doing something I like that is easy sniffle! We should get nurses pay for working fast food sniffle! Or better yet, free basic income! Right?

Life doesn't work that way, go earn it. Do what it takes to succeed. If you REFUSE to go for a career that pays then there is nobody to blame for your income issues because you by your own choice will not do what it takes to get there.

Envy - when you know you cannot have what you want and you will make sure nobody else can have it either. Very destructive.

a reply to: GodEmperor

You missed my point. The problems you raised are not insurmountable if enough people work on them. There is no desire on behalf of a tiny few (who make the policies) to solve the problems, hence the 1000 to 1 who have no chance to do so.

a reply to: Benicealways

I cant say I agree.

Human nature is not such a mystery. If we dont have to do something, we wont.

Earn something and you will expect whats just, and you demand whats yours.

We need people to WANT to become smarter and more auto-efficient. They wont if they dont have to.

Also, our government has too much power. Make them everyones sugar daddy and they will cash out on that, and we all know it.

I say make people have real power. /Control their energy, food and water. That will never happen if they dont own anything. If they become like addicts looking for free government checks, they will just fall into the generational trap of welfare.

Survival mode will be all they know. That is not what I want for my people.

originally posted by: Benicealways
a reply to: cynicalheathen
Name 1 resource that is scarce, crucial and also un-recyclable.

Ever burned a fossil fuel? Kinda hard to get those hydrocarbons and that water back into a useful form once you combust it.

Our economy is so dependent upon it that a small price change causes ripples throughout the chain.

After looking over the thread, I have a couple of questions for the OP or whoever would like to answer.

- Where do the funds come from to support this "basic income". Be specific.

- Where are the robots going to come from to make everyone able to work less? Large corporations? What makes you think that said corporations would do anything to help "their fellow man", and not keep the profits for themselves?

- Who will provide this "basic income" or basic resources to the people? What if the owner of a resource decides that they don't want to give up control of this resource at any price?

- How will you address inflation, or demand from the masses for more money? Be specific.

- If an AI is developed that will provide for free robots and maintenance thereof, how do you ensure that the AI doesn't up and decide one day that humans are no longer necessary? Or the robot workers develop enough sentience that they decide not to be slaves one day?

Universal basic income is paid to everyone, the extremely poor and the extremely rich. Even Donald Trump would get a paycheck. The idea with UBI is that you could cut all other benefit programs, such as social security, food stamp, wic etc, including the offices and departments that deal with them. Although there would be many benefits to UBI, I highly doubt it would be economically possible, or self sustaining. I am not an economist though, so maybe it could be. I am interested in the idea, however, as I like to think about the future and what society could be like in the year 2100.

I just don't buy into the system of 40+ years of 40+ hours a week to justify my existence. Not all people have the same potential, and most of society will remain the working class. I am a rather simple person and am content living a simple existence while pursuing my more existential and spiritual ambitions. A place to live, food in the fridge, electricity and health care are the basics. There is nothing wrong with wanting more than this, within the realm of reason. From my understanding, the universal basic income idea would pay just enough to cover the basics. If I want a car, a tv, insurance, internet, ps4, these things would go beyond my monthly budget, hence there is still an incentive to work. I am optimistic and like to think that people in general, like to work and find it fulfilling, especially in a field they are passionate about. It is about providing a basic foundation for all citizens within our society.

There seems to be two common types of thinking that are at odds. Those that believe in working together to further society and those that believe in a dog eat dog, by your own boot straps philosophy.

originally posted by: MrThortanThere seems to be two common types of thinking that are at odds. Those that believe in working together to further society and those that believe in a dog eat dog, by your own boot straps philosophy.

Ever work on a group project for school or work? Did everyone wind up doing their fair share of the work? My personal experience has always been no. The few hard workers wound up doing most of the work, with all involved getting the credit.

So... how do you believe that "working together to further society" will go? What happens when the hard workers see what is happening, and decide to join the slackers?

Therein lies the problem with utopian ideas.

a reply to: MrThortan

Let's do the math.

Let's say there are 200 million eligible people.... what is "acceptable income"?

20,000 a year?

That is 4 Trillion Dollars a year!


$3,248,723,000,000: Federal Taxes Set Record in FY 2015:
The largest share of fiscal 2015's record-setting tax haul came from the individual income tax. That yielded the Treasury $1,540,802,000,000. Payroll taxes for “social insurance and retirement receipts” took in another $1,065,277,000,000. The corporate income tax brought in $343,797,000,000.


So, how is that going to work again?