The Paradox of Applying the Typical 2nd Amendment Argument to the Dallas Shootings

a reply to: Gryphon66

I understand your frustration. I only mention that this entire discussion is predicated on the presumption that Micah Johnson was acting based on a belief that he was being subjected to tyranny. Those of us who observe his actions from another perception see his actions as criminal. And I am sure that somewhere, somehow, some see Johnson as a freedom fighter and hero. It all depends on one's perception.

ElectricUniverse sees things through his own lens of perception just as you do, I do, desert does, and anyone else does. Perhaps by not engaging, you have missed the opportunity to observe his reactions and perceptions, which obviously represent a point of view different from us previously active in the discussion.

Just sayin'...

TheRedneck

a reply to: Gryphon66

I hadn't realized just how strong my belief is about "belief" until this thread. LOL

And therein, my friend, lies the beginnings of a true Utopia I think we all dream about.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck
a reply to: Gryphon66

I admire your tact. I was just with family members for a few days, we got to talking politics, and I flat out told them that some ideas are bat# crazy. "The Earth is flat" is not on par with "The Earth is round". That's intellectual relativism. Well, I do understand why some people won't say it to another family member, but it doesn't make that family member's bat# thinking NOT crazy thinking.

Say, I saw the latest stats for the Stetson company, and it looks like recently there have been a lot of black hats ordered as gifts. Oh, Redneck, I learned a couple things about hats from going rural. I learned about the hand shaping, and I learned that hats have rain covers.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Except that, at least in my understanding and intent, this whole conversation is not based on the facts of what Michah Johnson actually did, thought and believed. Very early on I tried to make clear and have tried to do so again and again that my intention here was to use the Dallas shooting as the basis for a "what if" scenario to discuss the proposed topic (the paradoxical nature of the "defense against tyranny" argument for 2A.

However, I'll take your advice to heart and see what I can do.

a reply to: desert

Every part of the shape is an insight into the wearer. Most true hat enthusiasts do their own shaping.

Mine, for instance, is sharply triangular, tall front crown sloping down in the back, with a medium curl on the sides, a wide, light slope at the back, and a dented point at the front. I also use the small, simple band that comes with a Stetson. Durango has a wide brim and a moderately tall crown, which allows me to flatten the top.

There's a lot to the construction too. The high crown is for warmth; it traps an insulating layer of air. The wide brim is both a sun shade and an umbrella. Beaver fur is the preferred felt, since it is waterproof. The cardboard structure is the main thing that sets a Stetson apart: the high quality of the cardboard means it will hold it's shape through weather and abuse.

Show me a man wearing a pristine Stetson, not a speck of dust, perfectly clean and not a stray dent or sag to be found, and I'll show you someone putting on airs. Show me a man in a Stetson that has a few signs of wear, fits snugly on his head naturally, and still retains that proud look, and I'll show you a hat man.

Hat men rarely use rain covers on their hats. We wear them.

TheRedneck

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Let's start over, shall we? I have it on advice of someone I respect that I'm not dealing fairly in our interaction.

My position here in this thread is not what you apparently think. I am not concealing some hidden "anti-2A" agenda. I am not trying to justify the actions of the Dallas shooter. I'm interested in considering what we really mean when we talk about "defending from tyranny" in terms of real-life, modern-day, what we might actually experience terms, because I think it's very important that we truly understand what we mean when we say what we say.

Perhaps I've misconstrued what you've said here. Perhaps I'm not really listening because of our past disagreements and negative interactions. Perhaps I'm just being my normal irascible self.

Please tell me what your concerns are with the OP and what I've said here; try to be direct and factual, and I'll do my best in return.

a reply to: TheRedneck

And I learned more about hats! Say, I just remembered something. Roy Rogers! Roy, Dale, Trigger, and the Stetson!

Show me a man in a Stetson that has a few signs of wear, fits snugly on his head naturally, and still retains that proud look, and I'll show you a hat man.

You know, that's our American heritage. A person with ideas, a little wear from discussion and compromise, ideas that shape the mind yet rest snugly there, and yet still remain proud.

a reply to: desert

...and I just learned something about hats as well... a very profound something.

Good show!

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck

Show me a man wearing a pristine Stetson, not a speck of dust, perfectly clean and not a stray dent or sag to be found, and I'll show you someone putting on airs.

My mom used to call these people "Dime Store Cowboys."

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a "what if" scenario to discuss the proposed topic (the paradoxical nature of the "defense against tyranny" argument for 2A.

You know, that is exactly what a family member, a wise family member, did for one of her immediate family. She turned the belief back onto the person. A person had been accusing another family member of acting under Satan's spell; my wise sister turned it back by asking, what if it were you acting under Satan's spell that made you say accusations. It's not that my sister had the same belief, but she started where that person was and used the belief to let the person see the paradox. It worked BTW.

And it calls to mind what Jesus did about the paradox of healing on the Sabbath. Who wouldn't get their child or ox out of the well on the Sabbath?

Hmmmm, paradoxes are a better way than beating someone over the head. ..... desert puts down bat stick

a reply to: desert

I used to say that paradox was the only Truth.

I still believe that , in the sense that, human "truth" is always paradoxical. As Redneck pointed out early on, very little regarding humans has any mathematical precision, and sadly, very often, little actual elegance.

A philosopher I favor, Robert Anton Wilson, developed his concept of "Maybe Logic" along the same lines.

a reply to: desert

Humans have an inherent need to be right, no matter how minor the detail. Most humans will argue till the cows come home if they feel their position is under attack. A paradox works on this principle. It forces the person to choose which of their two positions must be wrong, because it plainly shows both can't be right.

That's what happened in your family. Being right in the accusation and being right as in not Satan were placed at odds with each other. Both could not be right, so the lesser of the two issues was deemed wrong.

Sometimes, I think it is no coincidence that the first syllable of "psychology" can phonetically be pronounced as "sick."

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Maverick7

If there is misbehavior and actual criminal activity on the part of local law enforcement, in your mind, would that constitute a valid example of government abuse of power and/or tyranny?

Would that kind of activity represent the kind of official action that the Founders put the Second Amendment in place to protect our communities against?

No, the change has to be internal and systemic.

a reply to: Gryphon66

This whole thread you made was exactly what you claim I am doing. You tried to deflect it towards your argument, and you keep making even more fallacious arguments, now attacking me and claiming "i only support my people"... What people are you talking about?... Point to me where I have EVER said that it is ok for any people to murder... You are the one twisting everything, and your dishonesty is obvious.

You tried to make this into a second amendment issue, even in your "what if scenario".

To show you how wrong you are in your constant claims that more gun control is needed, just take a look at what has been happening in France lately, including the 300+ rifles that were confiscated in raids in 15 days in France, a country with heavy gun control. The latest murder spree was done with a truck and a rifle, plus the explosives the thug/assassin had in the truck.

As to the problem occurring as we speak with thugs killing police officers, they all were members/supporters of hate groups like BLM... The same hate group that President Obama and his administration supports and have been defending.

No one should be calling for the murder of anyone and blame has to be given where it is due, and it isn't because of your constant attempts to call for a need for more gun control...

I do wonder why your "what if scenario" doesn't at any moment give fault where it is due...to groups like BLM calling for the murders of police officers and President Obama and his administration supporting such hate groups...

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: Gryphon66

This whole thread you made was exactly what you claim I am doing. You tried to deflect it towards your argument, and you keep making even more fallacious arguments, now attacking me and claiming "i only support my people"... What people are you talking about?... Point to me where I have EVER said that it is ok for any people to murder... You are the one twisting everything, and your dishonesty is obvious.

You tried to make this into a second amendment issue, even in your "what if scenario".

To show you how wrong you are in your constant claims that more gun control is needed, just take a look at what has been happening in France lately, including the 300+ rifles that were confiscated in raids in 15 days in France, a country with heavy gun control. The latest murder spree was done with a truck and a rifle, plus the explosives the thug/assassin had in the truck.

As to the problem occurring as we speak with thugs killing police officers, they all were members/supporters of hate groups like BLM... The same hate group that President Obama and his administration supports and have been defending.

No one should be calling for the murder of anyone and blame has to be given where it is due, and it isn't because of your constant attempts to call for a need for more gun control...

I do wonder why your "what if scenario" doesn't at any moment give fault where it is due...to groups like BLM calling for the murders of police officers and President Obama and his administration supporting such hate groups...

BLM is only a hate group in right wing world....


Only to the 25% of the population that actually believes the constant later debunked conspiracy theories Fox News and conservative media constantly spout.


Ever wonder why no one ever goes to jail no matter how treasonous the conservative story???

Beghazi, IRS, email scandals, obamas constant dictirial executive orders, exc, exc


All investigated by republicans (the same group saying their was a crime) or by the conservative majority Supreme Court, yet there is never any wrong doing found nor anyone charged. Hell even fox types move on 2 days later...




There really are only 2 options...


1) conservative media is telling the truth and there is a vast conspiracy involving the global media, education system, Hollywood, unions, universities and the scientific community.

2) conservative media is the main one lying...