Some serious theological problems with the Christian religion

originally posted by: TarzanBeta
To mojom,

Okay. Then point out the contradictions.

Nothing about that was carefully crafted. I didn't even correct my spelling and grammar.

Ok. Keep in mind I'm not trying to pick on you either. It's possible that I'm reading something that you didn't intend on saying. Especially if you wrote it without careful attention.

The first contradiction I see is the idea that Education interferes with Knowledge. I guess I can see where you're going with that but the purpose of Education is to give you Knowledge so without being more specific about which types of education are interfering and which ones aren't it sounds like your saying don't educate yourself with anything and in the end you'll have more knowledge. But that's just not how it works.

The other Contradiction I'm talking about is when you mention you say not to listen to anyone and that only you can change your mind if God allows you to see. I'm guessing you mean if he let's you see the Truth within the Word. So first off, if only you can change your mind then who cares who else you listen to since they can't effect you according to what you're saying. Second of all, if God must allow you to see the Truth then it's really not you changing your mind but God since as long as he keeps you blind to something you aren't capable of finding the Truth in the first place. Also you mention the Enemy convincing you of something Untrue at the same time again making it incorrect to say that only you can change your mind. Apparently, you can't change your mind but God or the Enemy can though.

But like I said, maybe I'm not understanding what you meant to say here. Perhaps instead of pointing out what isn't True you could show something that is instead. But then I don't think it would matter since you also said not to listen to anyone else about that kind of thing and to figure it out for ourselves instead reading the Word.

Which reminds me of the last contradiction which is that if we each learn the Truth for ourselves outside any other persons opinion, then how do you know that the OP is wrong??? If that is the Truth he's found, how can you say it's not True since his Truth might be different than yours and yet still be valid???

a reply to: CB328

In my ongoing quest to analyze religion and it's effect on society I have had a realization lately about Christianity- namely that Christians themselves can't even agree on the vital tenets of the religion.

Sure we can, churches split into denominations over differences of opinion of secondary doctrines. We all agree on the primary declarations of faith, I.E. the nurse nd divinity of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, the Messiah. Now, if there are some that don't agree there they are Christian cults, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostalism, et cetra.

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: CB328

No religion can encompass the whole truth of the individual. That is one of the reasons I don't participate in a religion. They are simply not one size fits all. If you are truly looking for spiritual truth as you say then you will find it within yourself not in a religion.

Huh? What kind of God is incapable of revealing Himself to His creation? That's not a God worth a damn.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Its not that you havnt read the word, you havnt applied intellect

People are all unique and individual, there is no global religion, Christianity is personal, between the individual and Christ.
Each person has a journey based on their life lived
We all grow in different ground, learn study, desire differently

Common sense dictates there is no one size fits all in life, especially faith

Just say a person gets lost in the prosperity movement, If they truly are seeking God and not wealth, "if they continue to work out their salvation with fear and trembling,"

God will honor them

Actually I have no problem with the version you're describing. It's more "All paths lead to God" than the traditional "Only one path leads to God". I personally like your version better.

However, that is not and has never been the dominate form of Christianity or the other Judeo-Christian Religions. Because allowing for a Subjective Personal Experience which is unique to each individual would mean there if flexibility in the rules and path one would take and clearly that is not how it's taught or how most Christians think of it.

If they did they wouldn't constantly be at odds with everyone else, even the other versions of Christian sects.

Yeah
Unfortunately, like everything else christians have their flaws
It is unfortunate its not the dominate way of thinking, apply leaders who are corrupt, followers who are ignorant of the truth

Unfortunately it is not "all paths lead to God" its a sincere seekers will find the path to God, big difference
And unfortunately we will always have to be constantly at odds with those opposed, simply because the opposition have control and dont want to relinquish that control, power and money

In the church there can be no middle ground with corrupt leaders

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: TarzanBeta

A true Christian believes that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that He died for the sins of the world. Everyone is forgiven and is saved by grace by simply believing.

Sounds very Paulian to me...

Jesus didn't teach the doctrine of Grace

Yes he did.

Jesus saved him personally even as he was on his way to make sure more Christians were killed. Jesus could have simply made sure he had a heart attack. Instead, he saved him and put him to work to show him just how much he would have to suffer for the Lord. That was God's command concerning Paul because of his zeal as a Pharisee in putting Christians to death.

Paul tells his story which IS a story of grace.

And there is so much more. But you clearly haven't read without the lens of folk who have an agenda in trying to separate Paul's message from Jesus'. And some will say James teaches not grace, but that is a lie, too.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Absolutely right, Jesus taught the concept of grace in the 3rd chapter of John.

"That God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Grace is receiving something from God that we have not earned and do not deserve.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Yes, but didn't Jesus warn of false teachers, and false believers in the church? How can we point to the whore and use her to define the bride? Makes no sense. Jesus said there would be wolves that would appear to be sheep, and that the devil sowed tares among the wheat.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: TarzanBeta
To mojom,

Okay. Then point out the contradictions.

Nothing about that was carefully crafted. I didn't even correct my spelling and grammar.

Ok. Keep in mind I'm not trying to pick on you either. It's possible that I'm reading something that you didn't intend on saying. Especially if you wrote it without careful attention.

The first contradiction I see is the idea that Education interferes with Knowledge. I guess I can see where you're going with that but the purpose of Education is to give you Knowledge so without being more specific about which types of education are interfering and which ones aren't it sounds like your saying don't educate yourself with anything and in the end you'll have more knowledge. But that's just not how it works.

The other Contradiction I'm talking about is when you mention you say not to listen to anyone and that only you can change your mind if God allows you to see. I'm guessing you mean if he let's you see the Truth within the Word. So first off, if only you can change your mind then who cares who else you listen to since they can't effect you according to what you're saying. Second of all, if God must allow you to see the Truth then it's really not you changing your mind but God since as long as he keeps you blind to something you aren't capable of finding the Truth in the first place. Also you mention the Enemy convincing you of something Untrue at the same time again making it incorrect to say that only you can change your mind. Apparently, you can't change your mind but God or the Enemy can though.

But like I said, maybe I'm not understanding what you meant to say here. Perhaps instead of pointing out what isn't True you could show something that is instead. But then I don't think it would matter since you also said not to listen to anyone else about that kind of thing and to figure it out for ourselves instead reading the Word.

Which reminds me of the last contradiction which is that if we each learn the Truth for ourselves outside any other persons opinion, then how do you know that the OP is wrong??? If that is the Truth he's found, how can you say it's not True since his Truth might be different than yours and yet still be valid???

Good education is rare. Education is a system of being led to a kind of knowledge, but sometimes what we're so sure of turns out to be completely wrong. To learn how many ways to be wrong would take forever, but to find the right way is simple. It requires an unbiased mind. Education creates a mind full of bias.

Hearing advice from people is fine. Listening to what people tell you to do is not fine. They may be right, but ultimately it is only ever advice. You must choose to believe or to perform.

Once God has revealed Himself to you, which you don't do, but He does, then you have the option of choice. If you were in a hospital bed and you couldn't get out of it, then how will you choose what food you want? Someone will have to arrive with the menu so that you can choose to eat what you will or not.

I'm not ruling out completely hearing others. I'm talking about attitude. People are wrong, God is not. The way to know what is right is to get the truth from the Source, if He so chooses to give it. This doesn't necessarily preclude one from doing work, in fact, the work is the way some people learn. Some learn by hearing, others by doing, others by seeing. But those that learn only by seeing will have issues because the eyes are easily fooled because we consider them the sense with the most integrity, which is untrue.

You know your heart, others don't, not until they've been around you a very long time or in very strong circumstances, and even then, they don't know it like you do, and you don't know it as well as God does.

We are biased by our own faulty opinions of ourselves, whether high or low. Therefore, if I sometimes don't judge myself correctly, how in the world will someone that is outside of me?

Unless it's the truth. But I would still need to acknowledge that.

a reply to: Metallicus

Jesus was against legalistic religious activities, He came to teach religion was a matter of the heart, not rituals. Pure undefiled religion is love. It's that simple to walk out a personal relationship with God through Christ, His Son. He promised if you diligently seek Him with all your heart you will find Him.

The only thing Jesus demands of us is devotion.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Something came to my mind that I heard Damon Thompson say.

"In the kingdom of God there are 2 types of people, workers and lovers, and the lovers will always get much more accomplished for the kingdom than the workers."

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Raggedyman

Yes, but didn't Jesus warn of false teachers, and false believers in the church? How can we point to the whore and use her to define the bride? Makes no sense. Jesus said there would be wolves that would appear to be sheep, and that the devil sowed tares among the wheat.

Yes
I thought that was what I implied

"In the church there can be no middle ground with corrupt leaders"

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Something came to my mind that I heard Damon Thompson say.

"In the kingdom of God there are 2 types of people, workers and lovers, and the lovers will always get much more accomplished for the kingdom than the workers."

I think that's about right!

a reply to: Raggedyman

Sorry, apparently I misread your post. My fault.

a reply to: birdxofxprey

This actually made the OP's point more clear. People who call themselves Christian spend a lot of their time arguing about who's a real Christian and who's not. They all read the same book and call themselves Christians, but then disagree as to whether or not the other people calling themselves Christians are really Christians or not. The only successful rebuttal to the OP would be a clear account of what it means to be a Christian, one with which no other Christians disagree.

I see your point but still not clear. You say the same book is read by all Christians and yet that NT literature was not even dreamed about in the first Nazarene liturgy of James. Yet all so called Christians of today proclaim that NT as their basic Christianity when in fact it is not the original Christian (Nazarene) doctrine of Jesus and James. In almost all of its entirety it does not even resemble the true doctrine of the Christ Jesus and James.

Why so? Because the NT era was a transformation period from rabbinic Judaism to that of the doctrine of Jesus. The NT is filled with rabbinic Judaism and not one of the Apostles completely understood the doctrine of Jesus even till this very day. All of the letters of the Apostles and disciples are filled with rabbinic thought simply because that was what all of the Apostles were born and raised with.

The reason there is so much confusion is the fact that the original Christians (Nazarene's) were not followed by their teachings. Instead they were slaughtered and the movement was hijacked by what we see today.

A good example is that of which this op has said. The Jews of Jesus" day were taught of only one gathering and judgment of all humans but Jesus taught of two gatherings or resurrection periods separated by a thousand years period. This and many other teachings are not taught by most denominations today and even read clearly in the bible by them is completely ignored. I have read just last week where the Roman Catholic pope has declared that the church owes the homosexual world an apology. Not a word about what Jesus declared concerning this perversion but only what man declares. This is not confusion but outright rebellion against the teachings of the Christ Jesus. So in my opinion I see that what you may call confusion is not confusion but rebellion.

a reply to: Seede

You're talking about the resurrection of the dead, yes.

Not all will perish, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.

You are correct, there is a thousand year period before the ressurection of the damned to judgment. They come back to life and Satan is loosed a little while again for a final temptation. It will be the proof that the damned truly reject God.

They will attack the Holy City, but God will rain fire from Heaven upon them.

Then Satan and the damned will be cast into the Lake of Fire with the false prophet and the antichrist.

You say churches aren't teaching that? It's all right in Revelation for everyone to see, if they'll read their Bibles.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

"In the kingdom of God there are 2 types of people, workers and lovers, and the lovers will always get much more accomplished for the kingdom than the workers."

Interestingly enough, he said that "work" glorifies the Father...

Faith alone is dead brother... without work there is no faith

Faith requires action as a reflection of that faith

Faith alone does not, and does not produce works of the spirit... despite what Christians will tell you

Just look at the churches of the world to prove that point

To Akragon,

Works are the obvious result. They aren't an obligation, they're simply a proof.

The work is right to do, no one denies that.

You're making work the basis of salvation. That is the sin of old Israel. All work, no heart, no forgiveness, all judgment.

Lame, friend.

Behold, one who believes work is not the basis of salvation has done more work in this thread than the one who claims that work is the basis.

Therefore, I have met your expectations when you have not. Interesting, don't you think?

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Works are the obvious result.

Not even close... IF that was the case, Christianity would not be hated by so many people

Preaching love for your neighbor, and actually showing it are two different things

Behold, one who believes work is not the basis of salvation has done more work in this thread than the one who claims that work is the basis.

How very humble of you... are you proud that you can type paragraph after paragraph in a single thread, and actually say nothing?

Therefore, I have met your expectations when you have not. Interesting, don't you think?
ed

I have few expectations... and i debate Christians all the time for many years...

You actually haven't hit what i expect from most Christians... and thats a good thing

Aside from telling me that i haven't read something... quite typical

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Works are the obvious result.

Not even close... IF that was the case, Christianity would not be hated by so many people

Preaching love for your neighbor, and actually showing it are two different things

Behold, one who believes work is not the basis of salvation has done more work in this thread than the one who claims that work is the basis.

How very humble of you... are you proud that you can type paragraph after paragraph in a single thread, and actually say nothing?

Therefore, I have met your expectations when you have not. Interesting, don't you think?
ed

I have few expectations... and i debate Christians all the time for many years...

You actually haven't hit what i expect from most Christians... and thats a good thing

Aside from telling me that i haven't read something... quite typical

Christianity is hated by so many because it is convenient to hate. Christianity allows you to hate it without worldly consequence. Christianity is the cool parent that let's the world do what it will and simply asks that you change your mind.

Forget about the false prophets of anger. That is reserved for Christians who are lying and manipulating, not the lost souls, for their judgment at the end is enough.

But to your words, you claim I say nothing because you choose not to take in what I say because then you would have to consider what I say.

And I didn't say you haven't read, I said you haven't read without reading through the lens of those who would separate the messages of Jesus and Paul, for they are the same message.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Christianity is the cool parent that let's the world do what it will and simply asks that you change your mind.

NO... lol

Christianity is "Do what i say... or else"

that is not the cool parent...

And I didn't say you haven't read, I said you haven't read without reading through the lens of those who would separate the messages of Jesus and Paul, for they are the same message.

no they're not...

As i've stated, Jesus didn't teach the doctrine of grace...

he said nothing about any "sin debt" that needed paying... or Adam & eve being the first result of sin...

OR that we're unworthy of anything or any such nonsense Paul pushes

Jesus said nothing bad about women... he had no problem sitting with, hanging out with... or dealing with sinners in any sense...

Completely different message then Jesus taught... You believe it is the same because you we're likely taught that from a young child as most Christians are... even i was.

Theres no need to separate the two message because they're already separate...