Some serious theological problems with the Christian religion

originally posted by: DefeatDeceit888

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: ketsuko

I am not a Mormon and don't believe Mormonism is a true Christian denomination, sorry
I believe the burning breast is of the devil, can't trust feelings

I am not a Catholic either

Then why do you use their Holy Books? Because without Catholicism you would not have Christianity or the Bible. So you just take traditions you like and don't believe in the Catholic Church as Christians.

They are as Christian as anyone and responsible for Catholicism and Christianity.

The failure is thinking that we know our relationship with God is based on feelings, it's not

I don't think that's tricky

If you disagree I am sorry

It is based on feelings, God GIVEN feelings like instinct.

All relationships are based on feelings and if you don't feel God you don't have a relationship.

Wow
You should read sheriff phages post about proselytising, even he wears his guns when it comes to sorting out the zealots
Evidently not very often in other threads but here he likes to expose his weapon in this forum

Bless the Mormons, bless
Blessings are never good, they mean not what you think

a reply to: Raggedyman

I am not talking about the Mormons.

Never mentioned them, wasn't proselytizing either. I am not Catholic or Christian I am just in touch with the Holy Spirit.

You said that Catholicism is not Christian.

If so, neither is the Bible, they created it to manipulate people anyway.

You are no more Christian than a Catholic congregant or the Pope.

You use THEIR Holy books, minus a few books, but the same book.

And you defend their history but today don't consider them Christians?

That means the Bible is not Christian too.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

With your waterfall of words, most meanings are lost

Summarise it TC
Summarise what your meaning is

I can do it for you

"All religions are evil, all religious people are retarded, we should push them into the oceans like the Muslims want to do to the Jews"

Dude...you just said humility would be a welcome wave to this forum. Hey, WWJD?

Try not to be so condescending. We all have reasons for where we are at. I have real big issue with much that you think is true in the bible. But guess what? 8 years ago, I sounded just like you. Hell, you should have seen how obnoxious I was when pushing the friggin Torah on all my Christian friends who LOOOOVED them some Paul. Now, I can't stand YHWH either. Oh, well.
It's all so dang ridiculous!
I said this very early on when I first started posting on here....the Bible is a book of dualities and polarities that produces those very things in people! Everyone's been arguing and killing people over this stupid book for millennial. Doesn't that tell you something about it's AUTHOR????? Well, there are a bunch of them, but I mean the spirit(s) behind the authors. There are good one's and there are evil ones. Can't you stand back and see that????

Thanks Matrixsurvivor, I will take it under advisement

First I will let TC answer for himself though

As for your opinion, its just your opinion, no need to go all fundy on me, preaching at me, I have heard your gnosticism before.
Thanks but no thanks


Jehovah is God a God of justice, sends Christ to earth to save people from justice that demands death.
Jehovah orchestrated many deaths as punishment for sin back in the OT, He will again when this earth wraps up, after Christ returns, after judgement day. There is only duality if you dont understand basic biblical theology.
Sadly You dont, if you think God was all brutal and bad in the first book, just wait and see whats coming in the final episode.
Those outside of Christ will suffer under the old laws

Now I dont have an issue with what you believe, its your choice

YHWH, the God who ordered...demanded...the death of so many men, women and CHILDREN because they were born into "Sin"??

Did Jesus really promote this particular God...or was it another, completely different God...one who didn't demand death, for not falling in line with his exacting demands?

a reply to: DefeatDeceit888

Then why do you use their Holy Books? Because without Catholicism you would not have Christianity or the Bible.

I do not understand this statement.
Did the Catholics write the Biblical texts?
Am I missing something here??

a reply to: fromtheskydown

Did Jesus really promote this particular God...or was it another, completely different God...one who didn't demand death, for not falling in line with his exacting demands?

We can't tell for sure yet whether the Jesus character in the story was or wasn't presenting a superior view of deity. But what we do know is that a growing segment of people have no interest in defending the Old Testament and it's presentation of deity.

Views are mixed. Some people turn OT into allegory. Some toss out the OT altogether. Some toss out OT and Paul. Most claim to follow the teachings of the Jesus character. Some toss OT and Paul but then add to their reading list books not recognized by church authority as suitable for public reading.

Exiting times! The boundaries are shifting.

a reply to: pthena

There are so many possibilities, but for the sake of staying with the ancient Jewish religion, the oldest copies state clearly in Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (around their) that Yahweh is one of the Sons of God and received from El Elyon the nation of Israel as an inheritance .

Yahweh was not El ever until cooperation with the Persian Mazdayaznians. Angelology and demonology as well as heaven, hell and judgement day were learned about from Persia. And who knows what else from that mysterious Empire and their lost secrets?

But some of both 'Gnosticism' and Kabbalah which in principle are very similar got their ideas from the Parsees (Pharisees source) such as Ain Soph in Kabbalah and Ineffable Aeon in 'Gnosticism'.

But I can't find too many other connections so I think the Chaldean Priests and Greco-Egyptian Alexandrian Jewish philosophers and for Kabbalah the 'Gnostics' themselves were big influences.

But the most important thing the Jews learned from Persia was duality, two Gods one good one evil, which they decided was better than polytheism but got rid of the Evil God creating Yahwism as a monotheistic religion with endless angels under him, some being the most prominent like Michael and Gabriel.

But, did Yahweh overthrow El or what?

The Babylonian Baal did. And just like early YHVH had Asherah for his wife/consort.

They are, despite how the Bible is written today, the same God and the Most High El Elyon all but forgotten.

I equate him to the Ineffable Aeon.

a reply to: pthena

I tried buying a Ugaritic texts and ended up with a Canaanite rituals book bit it mentions all the Hebrew Gods from the El era.

When he was still on top and with Asherah.

That is a common theme in the ancient gods tales, son takes over from father for one reason, usually death. Osiris/Isis/Horus

El/Asherah/Baal (I think Baal's father tried and lost).

a reply to: Raggedyman

So much pointing with daming fingers, do you have any fingers left? I suppose they turn into clench fists at the point, sad thing is youre only fighting with yourself and cant even see it.

What is clenched in your palms when all that pointing is said and done except the anger in your heart? How can it beat when youre ready to beat instead?

I'm not sure what you're trying to defend here but yourself and well, if being in such a place makes you happy? It's your choice and has always been your choice regardless of tradition that may say otherwise in some sort of pressure I'm not pressuring you. Just saying theres a lot more good in the world when we lay down labels we grip so titgtly and clench within our teeth and cannot free ourselves or others having a hot iron ball welded to our tonues of a flag pole or standard one does even carry properly.

But hey I appreciate the curses the condemnation and whatever else you need to get off your chest to make you feel better... they dont stick nor wound because theres nothing here. Thats emptiness and it doesnt mean a void of hate, tourture, and suffering if it did then the mirror would suffice to see where all of that pain tourture and suffering in clenched angry fists actually dwells.

No one needs to be at the bottom or top suffering running from side to side trying to achieve balance in those extremes trying to avoid loss and trying to not lose the last thing they cling too... fear is what perpetuates this being that cannot achieve balance. Be unafriad and let go and your faith will not catch you but humanity will and always have... the only pillar one has unto themself in the whole chain of causation or life in cause and effect is nothing... thats the true emptiness that keeps people feeling empty, hateful and hurtful.

Depend on others and they depend on you in support no group nor label need to be defined for that to occur, it is a separation a divide a salty sea of malcontient a malformation of being... just be and you'll find release in simply being.

If not recall it is your choice, and your choices becomes your cause and only your cause no matter the banner or standard under which one hides... as the effect lands squarely on you as your burden via your choice to act by way via body, speech, and mind.

I hope you use them well and all your choices become skillful that benefit and prosper not only yourself and others.

I dont believe in the human spirit, I uphold it and I urge you too as well no matter the form that it takes.

originally posted by: fromtheskydown
a reply to: DefeatDeceit888

Then why do you use their Holy Books? Because without Catholicism you would not have Christianity or the Bible.

I do not understand this statement.
Did the Catholics write the Biblical texts?
Am I missing something here??

Doubtful. But they made a law out of what could be scripture and burned almost everything else.

They created the Trinity, made Jesus God.

But most importantly he said they weren't Christians. If the Church that decided on assembled and no doubt edited the texts isn't Christian, neither is the Bible.

a reply to: DefeatDeceit888

Yahweh was not El ever until cooperation with the Persian Mazdayaznians. Angelology and demonology as well as heaven, hell and judgement day were learned about from Persia. And who knows what else from that mysterious Empire and their lost secrets?

I raised the question to a long time Sumerian/Akkadian student. Her response was that Judean concept was influenced by Neo-Babylonian Marduk first. As in before Babylonian destruction of temple, the priests were already assembling a monotheist god as a rival to Marduk. Marduk was a champion warrior god who was given all the attributes of all the pantheon.

After Persians absorbed Babylonian Empire, Judeans were exposed to Ahura Mazda, who is technically monotheistic but with a retinue.

So the Judeans made their own monotheistic god, modeled after Ahura Mazda.

My version doesn't completely match what she told me, but that's what makes sense to me.

As for earlier Canaanite and Ugaritic aspects adopted earlier, I know that I should know more but don't, failure to do much homework.

But the most important thing the Jews learned from Persia was duality, two Gods one good one evil, which they decided was better than polytheism but got rid of the Evil God creating Yahwism as a monotheistic religion with endless angels under him, some being the most prominent like Michael and Gabriel.

Pretty much, yeah.

They are, despite how the Bible is written today, the same God and the Most High El Elyon all but forgotten.

I equate him to the Ineffable Aeon.

Seems like a likely conclusion

a reply to: CB328

These points you posted are a result of the so called "Reformation" that swept through Christianity in the 1500's. I mean, with so many different opinions, all supposedly saying they are "Bible based" who's right?

Many folks won't like the answer.

originally posted by: fromtheskydown

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

With your waterfall of words, most meanings are lost

Summarise it TC
Summarise what your meaning is

I can do it for you

"All religions are evil, all religious people are retarded, we should push them into the oceans like the Muslims want to do to the Jews"

Dude...you just said humility would be a welcome wave to this forum. Hey, WWJD?

Try not to be so condescending. We all have reasons for where we are at. I have real big issue with much that you think is true in the bible. But guess what? 8 years ago, I sounded just like you. Hell, you should have seen how obnoxious I was when pushing the friggin Torah on all my Christian friends who LOOOOVED them some Paul. Now, I can't stand YHWH either. Oh, well.
It's all so dang ridiculous!
I said this very early on when I first started posting on here....the Bible is a book of dualities and polarities that produces those very things in people! Everyone's been arguing and killing people over this stupid book for millennial. Doesn't that tell you something about it's AUTHOR????? Well, there are a bunch of them, but I mean the spirit(s) behind the authors. There are good one's and there are evil ones. Can't you stand back and see that????

Thanks Matrixsurvivor, I will take it under advisement

First I will let TC answer for himself though

As for your opinion, its just your opinion, no need to go all fundy on me, preaching at me, I have heard your gnosticism before.
Thanks but no thanks


Jehovah is God a God of justice, sends Christ to earth to save people from justice that demands death.
Jehovah orchestrated many deaths as punishment for sin back in the OT, He will again when this earth wraps up, after Christ returns, after judgement day. There is only duality if you dont understand basic biblical theology.
Sadly You dont, if you think God was all brutal and bad in the first book, just wait and see whats coming in the final episode.
Those outside of Christ will suffer under the old laws

Now I dont have an issue with what you believe, its your choice

YHWH, the God who ordered...demanded...the death of so many men, women and CHILDREN because they were born into "Sin"??

Did Jesus really promote this particular God...or was it another, completely different God...one who didn't demand death, for not falling in line with his exacting demands?

Bingo. That's why Jesus "amazed" everyone with his teachings. They were coming from the mouth of the MOST HIGH, TRUE, God. Not YHWH.

a reply to: pthena

Is Marduk Baal's father? I am pretty sure Marduk is Baal's father.

Which makes what you said make complete sense to me about Marduk.

a reply to: pthena

What all of that seems to boil down too, is similar to mercury... all of these gods or religions or even charismatic leaders, have a draw or pull and well looking at ancient Egypt many were absorbed like a ball of mercury absorbs another as the peoples ideas beliefs and concepts changed to their need... of course this conglomeration came from the influence of the Greeks/Romans at the time... all trying or attempting to unite under one banner or god in a world rule or control... of course resistance becomes armies, and then crusades and conversions... all of which are still occurring to this very day. The last non covert way of accomplishing this was of course the mentioned crusades under the royal crown or throne... slavery wasnt even sanctioned or allowed in the US until a papal decree allowing it to occur.

So of course the desire, of all of these various factions want to unite under some power or authority and drag everyone with them under that same banner of moralistic belief...

Well, ethical society says, they all are a part of human heritage and have merit and value in equality, the same as the people practising them in a secular manner... that allows peace to occur in streets and of course if adopted the world at large... but the sad thing is there's no respect in secularism it's the non stop must conglomerate and not see the values of all the others in such respect of basically trying to achieve one thing: Peace.

Of course all of these ancient, modern and post modern ways or pathways to get to peace are colliding as to which ideology will get there... short answer? With acceptance and respect they all will.

So flying banners and standards hoping to change or alter the secular has done nothing but bring war into streets from the discord in ones heart based on belief.

While sometimes we can look at our fellow beings and seem to lose faith in them? It is that very faith and belief itself that starts turning into extremes and becomes the painful divide as there is a demand of slavery or submission to their will damaging the entire world in the process.

Peace is easy, it can be one single change of heart to say hey what is the end goal here? Peace. Then just go with that and all people will unite and all of this silly bicker and discord can end that has not seemed to accomplish anything but the rise and destruction of civilizations for thousands and thousands of years.

If it sounds ridiculous? I assure you it is. But at the same time... think of all the lives, families, pain, suffering and torture that has occurred under all of those banners trying to accomplice the same thing by their own slave brand that refuses to work with any others... one would have to assume, they simply want power and not equality... so greed is perpetuated, hate is perpetuated... and the whole world stays ignorant banging rocks together, throwing them at each other instead of using them to build something better.

a reply to: pthena

I take that back Marduk is the Sumerian Ba'al.
Dagon is the son of El and father of Ba'al .

So we were on the same page.

The Pope wears a Dagon hat called a Mitre.

a reply to: DefeatDeceit888

According to The Encyclopedia of Religion, the name Marduk was probably pronounced Marutuk.[3] The etymology of the name Marduk is conjectured as derived from amar-Utu ("bull calf of the sun god Utu").
- Wikipedia-Marduk

Wikipedia-Baal

Scholars previously associated the theonym with solar cults and with a variety of unrelated patron deities, but inscriptions have shown that the name Baʿal was particularly associated with the storm and fertility god Hadad and his local manifestations.[8]

The Hebrew Bible, compiled and curated over a span of centuries, include early use of the term in reference to their God Yahweh, generic use in reference to various Levantine deities, and finally pointed application towards Hadad, who was decried as a false god.

Looks like separate family trees. bull calf has some relation to Ugaritic Ba'al, son of El.

Early Hebrews may have taken Baal Hadad as their own, renamed him, and then called the Baal Hadad of others a false god, like: "My Red Rider BB gun is real and your Red Rider BB gun is fake." The most significant difference being a mine/yours dichotomy.

a reply to: pthena

I found four different sources, Encyclopedia Brittanica (I think) and Wikipedia and a couple others all say Marduk became Baal/Bel in Babylonian times and in Canaan.

Dagon is Baal's father, El is Dagon's father.

I can't ignore that. I Googled :

Baal Marduk and they were the same every sight I checked.

Then I did Dagon Baal and got the same thing.

Marduk would be the first name because Sumer was first but he was eventually called Baal then Bel.

Great research pthena and Defeatdeceit!
It makes sense then, why so many are totally turned off by the character of YHWH. He's a compilation of many gods...who weren't very nice.
I've studied some of what you two are talking about, but not as indepth.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Well, ethical society says, they all are a part of human heritage and have merit and value in equality, the same as the people practising them in a secular manner... that allows peace to occur in streets and of course if adopted the world at large... but the sad thing is there's no respect in secularism it's the non stop must conglomerate and not see the values of all the others in such respect of basically trying to achieve one thing: Peace.

Are you saying that secularism has no respect for religious movements?

I'm pretty sure that we are in agreement with what we would like to see happen. We're just people on ATS.

In the microcosm of ATS, which is also a global? network, I can't help but be excited by changes in Jesus people thinking (some don't label as Christian). It's kind of individual awakening, assisted in large part through education aided by ready access to information (when not censured). Secularists don't seem to have a problem with free access to education, unless I'm missing something. I think we can get along.

But at the same time... think of all the lives, families, pain, suffering and torture that has occurred under all of those banners trying to accomplice the same thing by their own slave brand that refuses to work with any others...

Special interest groups and plain old competitive human pride (my plan is mine therefore better than your plan), that's right, Chauvinism, whether political or religion ideology. That's what we face, plain old Chauvinism. And the people who thrive on Chauvinism, well, in an ideal world, would be ignored. But, here we are.

a reply to: DefeatDeceit888

Marduk would be the first name because Sumer was first but he was eventually called Baal then Bel.

Right, Bel and the Dragon story in Apocrypha Daniel, could be Marduk.