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originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: bobs_uruncle
Originally posted by bobs_uruncle
And there's the money shot. Predestined, no free will, we are riders in meat puppet suits, therefore there can be no sin as we have no control. We simply observe as we play out our characters in this divine comedy.
Cheers - Dave
But didn’t Jesus say “Seek the truth” and “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect”…and didn’t he also say “…the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.”…and didn’t Jesus also call sinners to repentance…?
They all seem like proactive statements to me; things to be followed…paths to be walked etc…
How then can you say there is “no sin”, and “no freewill”…?
- JC
originally posted by: Aedaeum
a reply to: bobs_uruncle
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
Similarly the Beast could exploit the support of a religious body without necessarily believing what they taught, and might later decide to destroy the same religious body without necessarily hating what they taught.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
So the Beast is the political power, and the Harlot is some kind of religious power (NOT necessarily one that is visible today).
It would appear that the political power exploits the religious power, and is therefore willing to support it, without actually believing in it.
Originally posted by Joecroft
If this Political/Beast power doesn’t believe in it, wouldn’t that suggest that it’s clearly not some kind of Religion like Satanism, Paganism, are any other religion that most Christians see as Satanic…otherwise the Beast would not be against it at all…IMO
Originally posted by bobs_uruncle
Easy, everything is preordained / predetermined therefore we no control. No control means we're not responsible, ergo no sin because we have no free will. This isn't rocket science, this is simplistic logic.
Cheers - Dave
Originally posted by DISRAELI
So the Beast is the political power, and the Harlot is some kind of religious
power (NOT necessarily one that is visible today).
Originally posted by Joecroft
Again I agree, the Harlot is definitely some type of religious
Power…IMO
But…
“Not necessarily one that is visible today”…How so…How is the Harlot not visible today according to scripture…?
Originally posted by DISRAELI
Where does scripture say that these entities will be continuously present for the whole of history? Or where does scripture say that "today" is the time when all the prophecies are being fulfilled?
If the Harlot represents some religious movement, or umbrella body for religious movements, which does not even come into existence until some future century, there is no reason why we should expect it to be visible today.
Remember, the Harlot rests on the support of the Beast. If the Beast is a political power dominating the world and persecuting the faithful church, then the Beast is not visible today either. The Harlot would have nothing to rest on.
Revelation 17:6
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
originally posted by: Joecroft
For example, if the beast didn’t believe in Christianity he would naturally try to get rid of it…problem is, the Harlot is described as something bad, so that doesn’t appear to fit. On the flip side, if the Harlot is something like Satanism, then why would the beast try to get rid of it in first place…?
Originally posted by Joecroft
So GOD wants us to give OUR KINGDOM over to the BEAST!!!…and it’s all part of His master plan…hmmmm…
Originally posted by DISRAELI
Check the context of that verse. "They" means the ten kings, repeating what John has already said in v13.
As for God putting things into their hearts, this is the same kind of issue as God "hardening the heart of Pharaoh".
Revelation 17:17
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
originally posted by: Joecroft
I've considered the context thanks…
That verse (Rev 17:17) speaks for itself…no context is even required…
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Hey Joe, normally in prophetic language a religion is spoken of as a woman, a whore or prostitute is a false religion or worship practice. Oftentimes idolatry is spoken of as harlotry or fornication spiritually.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
Ignoring the context is a fundamentally false way to approach the interpretation of the Bible. It is almost guaranteed to prevent any genuine understanding of what the Bible is trying to say.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
You persist in ignoring the words of v16.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
"The ten horns which you saw... will hate the harlot" etc.
This is the clue that "they" in v17 refers to the ten horns, i.e. the ten kings. That is why it is a mistake to change the "they" of v17 into "we". We are not the ten kings.
originally posted by: Joecroft
But the Kings are already a part of the beast system, so how can they give their Kingdom to the beast when they’re already a part of it…???
Also, the kings rule the nations, so ultimately overall, it is “WE” “we the people”…who are giving our self to the beast system…
Originally posted by DISRAELI
They are continuing to do it. The statement in v17 is not a new event, but a repetition of the information given in v13.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
You speak for yourself. I hope to be amongst those who are NOT giving themselves to the Beast system. So I completely repudiate that "We".