Revelation 17...???

Can anybody explain Revelations Chapter 17…???


Ok, where to begin…


In verse 1 we learn that the Woman/Great Whore sits in many “waters”. The waters are confirmed in verse 15 as being the people, the multitudes, and the nations etc…

Whoever or whatever this this Woman/Great Whore represents, the whole world and Kings have become intoxicated with it…(verse 2)…What could this possible be…?

The woman rides in on the Beast, who she presumable works for…does it’s bidding etc…

The Woman/Great Whore is decieving the people and the multitudes, and she works for the beast…And its states in verse 13 that they are all one mind and give their power unto the beast…


Now here’s where it get’s kinda weird…(if it wasn’t already lol)

Revelation 17:16
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Seems like the beast has a good thing going here; (when I say good, I mean from the beasts perspective)…why hate and destroy that which is helping give him power over the people and the nations etc…

Anyone care to explain that one…???


And this next verse is even stranger still…

I’ve highlighted the key parts…

Revelation 17:17
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

There’s a big question looming here, in fact, I’m not even going to type it out, it should be fairly obvious…I’m just going to say…it’s over to you believers…explain away…

a reply to: Joecroft

It will take me a bit to respond meaningfully.

There are plenty of mysteries in that passage.

I will say that the woman can be construed to be a major part of satan's globalist END TIMES structure, one world political/religious system.

I think that this is one of those passages which is designed to be clearer AFTER it is fulfilled in our time/space dimension. Looking back at the verses in Rev 17--it will be abundantly clear.

Anyway--Will see when I can respond more meaningfully.

Thanks.

Satan or the devil tempt or deceive people. He does not make you do anything. I feel this being would still be under God's command, doing his bidding. Satan is the one who gives the test, sort of like your teacher seeing if you paid attention.

Is Satan real? I don't know, but I sure am not going to start cutting down a being that has way more power than me. That does not mean I will follow along with the test, just that I don't want to be that kind of a person. He already has influence over half the people in the world and hopefully if I don't piss him off he will keep them from bothering me.

I think they are referring to Babylon the great in those verses. Or cities and governments like Babylon.

a reply to: Joecroft

Well, I think that the "woman" is dominating the Beast, because she's riding it. That's why the beast and horns "hate" her. Also, I think the woman represents the "anti-bride of Christ"; The Anti-Church.

Revelation 17:17 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Disclaimer: BTW, It's all God's will, predestined and part of his perfect plan.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Joecroft

Well, I think that the "woman" is dominating the Beast, because she's riding it. That's why the beast and horns "hate" her. Also, I think the woman represents the "anti-bride of Christ"; The Anti-Church.

Revelation 17:17 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Disclaimer: BTW, It's all God's will, predestined and part of his perfect plan.

And there's the money shot. Predestined, no free will, we are riders in meat puppet suits, therefore there can be no sin as we have no control. We simply observe as we play out our characters in this divine comedy.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Think of it like this. We have free will as far as God allows us to fire the arrow; whether the arrow hits its mark or not, is up to God. So do we have free will? Yes and no. Gods plan wouldn't work if we could do whatever we wanted, cause then he couldn't plan it, could he? A plan means he's already laid out every player, every event, and every goal ahead of time. He couldn't possibly do that with unknown variables.

I think it's quite the realization when you see we're all pre-destined for some cause-effect scenario. A good example is the hardening of the heart of pharaoh. Had God not hardened his heart, he almost assuredly wouldn't have lost his son and conceded early.

a reply to: Joecroft
My series on Revelation took four separate threads to get through the concept of the Harlot, so a short answer is not going to solve the problem.
Revelation; Project complete

I would offer a couple of very basic conclusions;

At the beginning, the Harlot is getting the support of the Beast. At the end, the Harlot is getting destroyed by the Beast. Therefore the Harlot and the Beast have to be two different entities. Those who like to identify the Catholic Church as the Beast also like to identify her as the Harlot, but this is impossible. She cannot be both.
Anyway, the Beast must be a political entity (by comparison with the "beasts from the sea" in Daniel ch7). The Harlot evidently lives in some sort of relationship with that.

The Harlot is the counterpart of the "woman seen in heaven" in ch12.
In fact between them they are the two halves of Jeremiah's prophecy to Jerusalem;
"And you, O desolate one, what do you mean that you deck yourself in scarlet?...
I heard a cry as of a woman in travail".- Jeremiah ch3 vv30-31
So I would identify them as two versions of God's people- a faithful version and an unfaithful version.
The woman in ch12 is true to God, the woman in ch17 co-operates with the Beast (and gets no gratitude).

So the Beast is the political power, and the Harlot is some kind of religious power (NOT necessarily one that is visible today).
It would appear that the political power exploits the religious power, and is therefore willing to support it, without actually believing in it.
That has historical precedents. HItler had no trust in the teaching of Christ, because he thought the Christian approach was too "soft". However, that did not stop him from trying to bring the German church under his control and getting them to give him patriotic support. Some leaders of the church fell for it, but some famous teachers broke away and set up an independent path.
If the Beast is only pretending to love the Harlot, it is not necessarily surprising that the Beast should turn treacherous and destroy the Harlot once she had served his purpose. This is the classic scenario of "thieves falling out".

a reply to: Joecroft

Chris White has a good study on this section of Rev. He has it in a podcast as well as text .Nearly all of the imagery in Revelation can be found in the OT and Chris does a great job of bringing it all to the table .Just scroll down to Sept./Oct. to get to the study .. versebyversebibleteaching.com...

a reply to: windword

Yes, she represents the church and its anti-Christ doctrine. The beast is the sacrificial Jesus, the one who was wounded but healed and who the world follows in wonder. The church rides on the back of Jesus which is why it is so influential. The mystery on her forehead is the profound mystery of the church that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 5. Why did Jesus have to die to forgive sins? It's a mystery, but Christians still accept it as true from fear of hell.

Revelation is NOT a prophecy, it is about what has already happened. Jesus was turned into an idol by those in power, he was turned into the brass snake that people look up to and are "healed", though it is actually sickness they get thinking that it is healing.

Jesus said that weeds would be sowed with the wheat, that is exactly what happened, his truth was corrupted by the power elite globalists of the time: Rome.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Good write up, this part in particular:

So the Beast is the political power, and the Harlot is some kind of religious power (NOT necessarily one that is visible today).

The beast and harlot have come and gone throughout history in different forms. It is a recurring theme, political powers rise and fall and they use whatever religion is present at the time to further their political goals. Just as America's political system has used Christianity to gain votes, so it has been throughout history.

You have the right ideas but are ignoring a huge blind spot in your logic which is a product of believing Revelation hasn't happened yet. It has happened already several times throughout history. It is a commentary on the recurring theme of political powers creating and using religion to placate the masses and make them do as they wish.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

NOPE.

NOPE.

NOPE.

AND

NOPE.

No way Revelation has already happened. There are tooooo many impossible-to-have-happened events in it.

Sigh.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Revelation uses symbolism, it isn't meant to be taken literally. Everything said in Revelation is impossible when taken literally.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The last two chapters, at least, have blatantly not happened yet.
That's where everything is leading.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Rev.18 describes Her as the city of Jerusalem in the end times .Its where the Prophets were murdered and the Lord .Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

a reply to: DISRAELI

It has happened many times, religious institutions have risen and fallen throughout history just as political powers have.

In the context of Christianity? No, it has not happened yet, Christianity is still in power, but it is inevitable that it will fall and be replaced by the next religion created by the power elite. The last two chapters are only a recounting of things that have happened before and that will inevitably happen again with today's religious institutions.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
In the last two chapters, pain and sin and death have come to an end. God's people are living in the presence of God.
You cannot say that these things have taken place.
If you can convince yourself that "mourning and tears and pain have passed away", then you are in denial. You have stopped looking at the world around you.
I must repeat, the last two chapters of Revelation have clearly not been fulfilled.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

That generalized blanket assertion is false.

Some of the symbolism is to be taken both literally and symbolically.

Much is to be taken straightforwardly literally.

Some of the symbolism is explained. Daniel can add to the clarity--particularly the last of the 9th chapter of Daniel.

One expert discovered that greater clarity arose when he treated the angelic interludes as footnotes.

I don't think of anything in Revelation that has already occurred, yet. But the whole of it is on the near horizon.

I'd guess that within 8-15 years, Armageddon will be history.

But not yet.

The bulk of Revelation COULD NOT OCCUR until Israel returned to her God-given lands in 1948.

Preterism is a pile of deceptions and lies from hell.

a reply to: BO XIAN

There are some differences between "Full and Partial " Preterism . The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD fits the Partial aspect of Mat. 24 and in Luke . Daniels end time 4 beasts is still not on the scene but this latest BREXIT vote may shuffle things around to produce such a time . It's worth noting that after the destruction of the Little Horn Beast that the other 3 beasts are allowed to continue for a short time .

originally posted by: Aedaeum
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Think of it like this. We have free will as far as God allows us to fire the arrow; whether the arrow hits its mark or not, is up to God. So do we have free will? Yes and no. Gods plan wouldn't work if we could do whatever we wanted, cause then he couldn't plan it, could he? A plan means he's already laid out every player, every event, and every goal ahead of time. He couldn't possibly do that with unknown variables.

I think it's quite the realization when you see we're all pre-destined for some cause-effect scenario. A good example is the hardening of the heart of pharaoh. Had God not hardened his heart, he almost assuredly wouldn't have lost his son and conceded early.

No, you either have predetermination or you have chaos. You can't have both. There is no free will, we are merely tied to our characters and we have no control. We will do whatever our script dictates, nothing more and nothing less.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: DISRAELI

I don't think the world around us is a good place to look for answers or truth, it's full of deception and lies with the bible being at the heart of the rise of our current corrupt society. It has helped to shape the Western world more than anything else.

John had a personal revelation, the same can happen for us. Once you find Jesus within yourself then you no longer mourn or feel pain because you know death is not real, once you find Jesus within yourself you are in his presence and realize you always have been because he is you and you are him.

The book of Revelation describes the corruption of this truth by political figures and religious institutions throughout history and that once you see past the lies then Jesus comes to you by revealing himself within you. Revelation is an inner process, not an outward one and God is not going to come out into the world to save anyone from anything, he does that within each person if they choose to seek him within.