After Orlando, time to recognize that anti-gay bigotry is not religious freedom: Neil Macdonald

a reply to: Boadicea

You make an excellent point. I was raised in the Episcopal church - they have had female deacons and priests forever, and are LGBT friendly.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Boadicea

You make an excellent point. I was raised in the Episcopal church - they have had female deacons and priests forever, and are LGBT friendly.

Right back atcha -- you make another excellent point. I believe the Episcopal church was one of the first to embrace both women leaders and the gay community. These churches -- and Christians -- are those we should be paying attention to and listening to as we move forward, opening hearts and minds to greater truths and greater options. We all do better when we know better.

a reply to: Boadicea

Thank you for reminding all of us that there are Christians and churches that do not espouse separation.

Unfortunately, the problems around religion in America nowadays took fierce root in the 1970s, and the seeds of intolerance grew into a powerful tree, when religious conservatives and political conservatives conspired to give power to each other. The tree of religious intolerance was watered by politicians of intolerance.

The type of Christianity that grew into a defacto state religion started out by 1980 into separating those Christians who were "saved" (in their mind) versus Christians who were "not saved". The "saved" Christians were given clout in culture and politics.

There is an interesting read from 1980, that is prophetic as to the path American Christians would take.

The right-wing moralists make scapegoats of homosexuals, who are now aboveground and who claim the full rights of human beings and citizens. Though in interviews Falwell appears more moderate on this subject than his book would suggest, we can expect the religious right to harass homosexuals and to try to deny them their civil rights.

Most Americans share the Moral Majority’s anxiety about signs of moral breakdown, including the weakening of the family. But the Moral Majority confronts these problems with a sledgehammer, and its proposed solutions would threaten other values.....
.......
The tirades of the Moral Majority against "humanists" are misdirected. The various kinds of humanists I have mentioned usually are morally sensitive about a number of issues, including those related to justice and peace, personal integrity, poverty, hunger and oppression in many parts of the world. Very few American secular humanists are polemical atheists. The respect for religion and for the Christian and Jewish traditions in this country is widespread indeed, as shown in polls about beliefs and about church attendance. The culture is highly secular, but the problem is not one of an intellectually aggressive secularism orchestrated by humanists. It is true that there are probably more people today without either religious or moral moorings than was the case of a generation ago, but this situation is partly a consequence of disillusioning events and loss of roots and hopes that give direction and meaning to life. Humanists at least do have moral moorings.

The author, John C. Bennett, was president of Union Theological Seminary. His prophetic words fell on increasingly deaf ears. What he and others thought could not happen in America (the rise of this type of divisive Christianity) did happen, and we suffer from it to this very day.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I don't think so. But if you think we are, maybe you should have said it better.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Y'all have FORCED your daffynitions on Christians by political clout.

Excuse me? Who do you mean by "y'all" and what definitions have been forced on Christians?

originally posted by: BO XIAN
Other atheists and agnostics mostly just don't care much about any of it one way or the other. They don't get their emotions triggered one way or the other.

I actually don't care what religious people believe. I support their right to believe, worship and practice their religion, as long as their "practicing" doesn't step on the rights of others. ANY others.

And I don't mean to say ALL Christians. I'm talking about the "Church"... The political movement of Christianity in this country to deny LGBT people their legal rights. I know many sweet, loving Christians who do not fall into the category I speak of. It's mostly the leaders like the guy in the video from earlier in the thread.

Bigotry is freedom of speech

Hate crimes are not

There is a difference and it's not hard to understand.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Nope, but actions based in bigotry yes. Such as passing 'religious freedom laws'.

So will fully IGNORE the first and 14th amendments.

As the evil christian in the thread that is apparentely 'responsible' for Orlando.

My god doesn't say it's ok to go around shooting people, Including LGBTS.

It's one thing for the left and right to bicker back and forth over petty politics.

We prefer shooting words. DEBATE as opposed to INTERNATIONAL relgious zealots whose religion is a marriage made in hell of religious and political beliefs.

Whose first go to response in dealing with people is to either shoot them,behead them,stone them, or blow them up.

Westerners have been discussing the issues CIVILLY for decades.

Neil can keep his political opinions in Canada.

a reply to: desert

Thank you for the links/quotes. I hadn't heard of this guy before, but he sure called it!!!

He seems to confirm what I have long suspected / believed: That there was a deliberate coordinated effort (starting back in the 60s and 70s) to exploit and cultivate the worst parts of religion in order to discredit and undermine all religion, using fear and anger and hate to do so. The results today are obvious.

We have been pitted against each other by our real (and perceived) differences, deliberately, rather than united by our genuine common needs and greater good.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
Neil MacDonald is a prominent Canadian journalist and writes a lot of opinion pieces, this one stood out for me.

The article begins by discussing the shooting at Montreal's École Polytechnique in 1989, where a young man killed 14 women before killing himself.

As Neil points out:

The atrocity, and its stated motivation, immediately triggered an angry and overdue conversation in Canada about misogyny and collective male guilt.

It was hard to swallow, but only a dullard could reject the logic outright.

And, at least partially as a result, open sexism and misogynistic humour became far less okay after Polytechnique, at least in polite company. It was a transformative moment.

And in the next paragraph, the hard part, the part nobody wants to talk about:

Now, after Omar Mateen armed himself, reportedly professed allegiance to ISIS and went hunting gays in an Orlando night club, could there possibly be a better time to have the same conversation about organized religion, and what responsibility it bears for the pain and misery and death inflicted on gays for so many centuries in the name of god?

At what point do we start having the national conversation that bigotry is not religious freedom. Not wanting to serve people because of your feelings towards them is not your right or your freedom in the 21st century. And I don't agree with Neil often, but this lat bit:

In any event, this much is singularly true: the worst mass murder in American history was directed at one group, and it was done by some one who had sworn allegiance to a fundamentalist religious group.

If casual misogyny and sexist humour helped create Marc Lépine, then organized religion must reflect on helping shape a culture that will this week have led to 50 funerals in Florida. It's not just the extremists who want to deprive gays of human rights.

I could not have said it better myself. As we've seen already, from some of the responses in the religious community, they are all but jumping for joy that this occurred in some circles or condemn the violence but not the outlook.

~Tenth

It would be wise and prudent to remember that Islam is not merely a religion, but a theocratic movement whose stated goals are a religious state generally under Sharia Law.

The constitution guarantees us a republican form of government. A theocratic movement is definitely not in line with the constitution.

But then again, hey, it is only those right-wingnut radical Christians that are a threat according to the government right?

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: TheBulk

Out of curiosity do you feel the same about musicians who won't play in States they don't like, or cake shops that won't make anti gay-marriage messages on their cakes?

One of these things is not like the other. The first is a musician practicing political activism the best way they can, by denying a state revenue based on it's chosen path of discriminating against people.

The other is just religious people who want to discriminate against gays. So, I don't know how to answer your question.

And once again we seem to have pivoted to talking about Christians even though it's Muslims who keep murdering people. It seems the anti-christian bigots will use any excuse to promote hate against their favorite scapegoat.

Ah there's the feigned outrage. The issue at large is since America is a 'christian country', and this man was American, he was likely more influenced by the mainstream religions of America in his line of thinking. And since they heavily discriminate and act intolerant of LGBT, well, you see where I'm going.

I'm not anti-christian or anti religion, I'm anti bigotry. It just so happens that a large swatch of Christians feel the same way and therefore get a lot of attention for it. If you'd like people to stop being mean to Christians, have Christians stop being mean to others.

~Tenth

What the actual f*ck are you on about? The guy was Muslim, not Christian. I think any reasonable person would assume that his professed faith influenced him more than a religion he didn't belong to.

I'm not even really interested in the pathetic political maneuvering going on around here these days, but this little dance you're doing is comical.

You know what? It isn't just anti gay bigotry, it's anti their parents, brothers, sisters, friends and in some cases their children too. Can you really hate that much and still be considered a normal, functioning member of society?


For anyone to happily spout their hatred like the guy in the video is simply beyond me. (And yes, this isn't just Christians, it's Muslims (and some Jews and possibly others too).

Normal people save their hate for those trying to harm them.

a reply to: Talorc

It should be obvious.

1.) It is not politically correct to criticize Islam as it may offend Muslims.

2.) They are generally anti-religious.

So they have to couch their anti-Islam arguments in terms of being anti-Christian because it is perfectly OK to hate on Christianity and Christians all they want and they since they are pretty much anti-religious, they don't mind. So it creates all of this weird so-called logical twisting you see where they attempt to create a way to curtail the one by attacking the other and end up taking out both and removing our basic liberties while they are at it.

Of course, they don't realize they'll end up taking away their own freedoms of speech while they're at it, but they're too busy chomping at the bit to attack religion to care.

This has been coming for a while sadly.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Talorc

It should be obvious.

1.) It is not politically correct to criticize Islam as it may offend Muslims.

2.) They are generally anti-religious.

So they have to couch their anti-Islam arguments in terms of being anti-Christian because it is perfectly OK to hate on Christianity and Christians all they want and they since they are pretty much anti-religious, they don't mind. So it creates all of this weird so-called logical twisting you see where they attempt to create a way to curtail the one by attacking the other and end up taking out both and removing our basic liberties while they are at it.

Of course, they don't realize they'll end up taking away their own freedoms of speech while they're at it, but they're too busy chomping at the bit to attack religion to care.

This has been coming for a while sadly.

Honestly, reading this empty tripe is just getting so exhausting.

What exactly is being taken away from Christians, here?

I don't know of any organization that is not religious which receives the "SPECIAL RIGHT" (I'm sure you're familiar with this term) to congregrate and discuss strictly genocidal ideologies AND continue to operate after a member successfully commits a genocidal act (government aside, of course).

Snowflakes everywhere these days.

a reply to: DeadFoot

Yes, I agree that when simply talking about how everyone should be Muslim moves into trying to actually force everyone to be Muslim or kill them when they refuse it becomes a problem that should be stopped.

But of course, to some people when we discuss anything that is a sin and its consequence if left unrepented of, this suddenly becomes "genocidal" ...

a reply to: ketsuko

There is quite a difference, though, between:

1. Discussing what -- according to your religion -- is a sin and it's personal/spiritual consequences

And

2. Holding a sermon on how we all should be punishing them by killing them en mass


In any other congregation of any sort, you would hope that the people responsible for influencing these kids to murder people would be warranting of some sort of blame?

And realize that this is going to be much more common in Mosques and such. Jesus wouldn't be shooting up a gay nightclub; Mohammed, on the other hand... well yea that's pretty much exactly what he would be doing. Either way it happens in both, though.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I'm still not sure where all of the Christian talk is coming from. This was a self identifying Muslim, correct? I'm not religious in the slightest but I am curious as to why Christians seems to catch so much hell when Muslims flip out and murder people.

originally posted by: saintdopeium
a reply to: tothetenthpower

I'm still not sure where all of the Christian talk is coming from. This was a self identifying Muslim, correct? I'm not religious in the slightest but I am curious as to why Christians seems to catch so much hell when Muslims flip out and murder people.

Because they've been taught that hating Christians is progressive and blaming Islam or Muslims for anything is racist or hateful in some way. Now of course they're being hateful towards Christians, but they have been brainwashed to believe hate towards them is a good thing. It's the same with SJWs that are racist towards whites, while telling themselves its not possible to be racist to whites.

originally posted by: Maverick1

The right to choose who one wants to be with should be protected. So should the right to be free from persecution

Ain't gonna happen. People are persecuted because of the ideas in their heads.

Remove all ideas, and persecution will cease. But, only the Buddhas achieve that state of mind.

When your ideas are contrary to mine, there will be conflicts between us, as you demand that I recognize your view and I demand you recognize mine.

The problem is that we both live in the same world. So, by design, we must trespass on other people's rights.

That's why the Christian prayer says "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those that trespass against us."

Some people are naturally offended just by the sight of another person in their environment. Why they feel offended is a mystery. But they do. The Shooter in the gay bar was offended when he saw two gay men kissing in public earlier in Miami, as he said "They did it in front of my son". Maybe if the gay lovers had gotten a room, and did their thing in private, this event would never have happened. But, gay men also get offended when the Church refuse to marry them. So, everybody is offended, all the time, by each other. We all want other people to change, to fit our personal world view. They are, after all, "trespassing" in our world. That's the drama of life.

a reply to: TheBulk

Religious freedom laws don't legalize murder, right? So, the argument becomes religious freedom laws lead to murder? This is confusing.

originally posted by: AMPTAH

Ain't gonna happen. People are persecuted because of the ideas in their heads.

Remove all ideas, and persecution will cease. But, only the Buddhas achieve that state of mind.

When your ideas are contrary to mine, there will be conflicts between us, as you demand that I recognize your view and I demand you recognize mine.

The problem is that we both live in the same world. So, by design, we must trespass on other people's rights.

That's why the Christian prayer says "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those that trespass against us."

Some people are naturally offended just by the sight of another person in their environment. Why they feel offended is a mystery. But they do. The Shooter in the gay bar was offended when he saw two gay men kissing in public earlier in Miami, as he said "They did it in front of my son". Maybe if the gay lovers had gotten a room, and did their thing in private, this event would never have happened. But, gay men also get offended when the Church refuse to marry them. So, everybody is offended, all the time, by each other. We all want other people to change, to fit our personal world view. They are, after all, "trespassing" in our world. That's the drama of life.



exactly. Very well put.