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Aryanam Vaijah the ancient home land of Aryans
page: 5share:
a reply to: zinc12
In fact, the Buddha calls his disciples arhats, derived from the Sanskrit " aryan" root. They can come from all castes. Saying that the Aryans must be a real people because there is a mythology ascribing a homeland to them is begging the question in a (literally) epic way.
Correction, the Nazis, who believed that they were descended from the mythological Aryan race, had their own ideas about political correctness. To the wannabe " Aryans," being Jewish, Slavic, Black, Romany, homosexual, a devout Catholic, developmentally disabled, or just unruly was considered to be politically incorrect. They devised a simply system for removing political correctness from their perfect " Aryan" society.
No, I just understand what those results actually mean. Certain populations have sequences of genes in frequencies similar to those of other populations. There are some Indian sub-populations that have frequencies similar to those of Sephardic Jews. All it proves is that there was significant trade between Europe, North Africa, and Asia in Roman times. Of course, we know that from contemporary records. When Constantine made Christianity the state religion of the Empire, all the idol makers moved to India, which is why Indian statuary suddenly started looking much more Greco-Roman.
The whole myth of the "Aryan people" came from the theorizing of Nineteenth Century philologists, who wanted to explain why certain languages seem to be related. Occultists picked up on it, and embellished it with a combination of authentic mythology and "channeled revelations." Neo-Nazis seem to be trying to revive this racialist nonsense, along with the preposterous stories about the "Vril Society."
"Aryanam Vaijah" literally homeland of THE Aryans...yes Aryans are a race otherwise they would not have a homeland they would have said they can be found wherever noble people can be found.
In fact, the Buddha calls his disciples arhats, derived from the Sanskrit " aryan" root. They can come from all castes. Saying that the Aryans must be a real people because there is a mythology ascribing a homeland to them is begging the question in a (literally) epic way.
You see unlike today the Aryans didn't give a fig about political correctness.
Correction, the Nazis, who believed that they were descended from the mythological Aryan race, had their own ideas about political correctness. To the wannabe " Aryans," being Jewish, Slavic, Black, Romany, homosexual, a devout Catholic, developmentally disabled, or just unruly was considered to be politically incorrect. They devised a simply system for removing political correctness from their perfect " Aryan" society.
Oh and btw are you forgetting the dna results of high caste Indians proving the Aryans were European?
No, I just understand what those results actually mean. Certain populations have sequences of genes in frequencies similar to those of other populations. There are some Indian sub-populations that have frequencies similar to those of Sephardic Jews. All it proves is that there was significant trade between Europe, North Africa, and Asia in Roman times. Of course, we know that from contemporary records. When Constantine made Christianity the state religion of the Empire, all the idol makers moved to India, which is why Indian statuary suddenly started looking much more Greco-Roman.
The whole myth of the "Aryan people" came from the theorizing of Nineteenth Century philologists, who wanted to explain why certain languages seem to be related. Occultists picked up on it, and embellished it with a combination of authentic mythology and "channeled revelations." Neo-Nazis seem to be trying to revive this racialist nonsense, along with the preposterous stories about the "Vril Society."
originally posted by: zinc12
a reply to: DJW001
Oh and btw are you forgetting the dna results of high caste Indians proving the Aryans were European?
There is no such study "proving" anything of the sort. Just your wishful thinking and usual cherry picking.
I presume you are referring to the small scale DNA study:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
It certainly doesn't prove anything, just another small part of the puzzle that is thousands of years of migration and mixing across Eurasia. And the authors certainly don't support your Northern European supremacy BS:
The origins and affinities of the ∼1 billion people living on the subcontinent of India have long been contested. This is owing, in part, to the many different waves of immigrants that have influenced the genetic structure of India. In the most recent of these waves, Indo-European-speaking people from West Eurasia entered India from the Northwest and diffused throughout the subcontinent. They purportedly admixed with or displaced indigenous Dravidic-speaking populations. Subsequently they may have established the Hindu caste system and placed themselves primarily in castes of higher rank. To explore the impact of West Eurasians on contemporary Indian caste populations, we compared mtDNA (400 bp of hypervariable region 1 and 14 restriction site polymorphisms) and Y-chromosome (20 biallelic polymorphisms and 5 short tandem repeats) variation in ∼265 males from eight castes of different rank to ∼750 Africans, Asians, Europeans, and other Indians. For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians. However, 20%–30% of Indian mtDNA haplotypes belong to West Eurasian haplogroups, and the frequency of these haplotypes is proportional to caste rank, the highest frequency of West Eurasian haplotypes being found in the upper castes. In contrast, for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank.
And this is the current favourite hypothesis of what those migration patterns looked like
The indo-Europeans (IE) pushed south into Northern India and northwards into Europe from the pontic caspian steppe (at least that is the favourite hypothesis) spreading their language (proto-indo european) and genes. The genetic study provides some evidence that the current upper castes are more likely to be related to these IE invaders than the lower castes are. This means they share a common ancestor with modern europeans - that is the indo-europeans.
Keep in mind that the reason the IE migrated into Northern India was that the highly sophisticated Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC) had gone into terminal decline - their cities largely abandoned. The indo-Europeans weren't some sophisticated civilisation smashing a less developed indigenous one - quite the opposite.
The IE were nomadic cattle herders, living on the back of a horse, whilst the IVC at it's peak, had indoor plumbing and private toilets!
The migrations would have been more like the Mongols migrating into a crumbling China, rather than your weird vision of a bunch of Scandinavian ubermensch going around civilising the 'darkies'.
a reply to: FatherLukeDuke
You are spot on with your reply, except for one thing;
The IE didnt move into a declining Idus valley civilization so much as the climate change that caused the Indus civ to fail also put the IE in motion as there ancestral grazing lands could no longer support their herds.
Most people also don't realize that the Idus valley civ. knew nothing of the horse, there are no imagery or statuary of horses ever found at a Indus Civ. site.
You are spot on with your reply, except for one thing;
The IE didnt move into a declining Idus valley civilization so much as the climate change that caused the Indus civ to fail also put the IE in motion as there ancestral grazing lands could no longer support their herds.
Most people also don't realize that the Idus valley civ. knew nothing of the horse, there are no imagery or statuary of horses ever found at a Indus Civ. site.
a reply to: DJW001
As someone who used to be crazy about martial arts I can tell you an arhat is a destroyer of evil, a conqueror and they are always experts in martial arts, both the external and its spiritual aspect often depicted fierce eyed clenching various weapons. They come at a time when evil has grown out of control but unlike a preacher/teacher when they come it is to kick ass! The next Buddha will be an arhat, Kalki it is said will travel the globe killing by the millions.
Nice try but I already showed that the European genetic component in high chaste Indians has been traced back to the south border of Russia.
As someone who used to be crazy about martial arts I can tell you an arhat is a destroyer of evil, a conqueror and they are always experts in martial arts, both the external and its spiritual aspect often depicted fierce eyed clenching various weapons. They come at a time when evil has grown out of control but unlike a preacher/teacher when they come it is to kick ass! The next Buddha will be an arhat, Kalki it is said will travel the globe killing by the millions.
No, I just understand what those results actually mean. Certain populations have sequences of genes in frequencies similar to those of other populations.
Nice try but I already showed that the European genetic component in high chaste Indians has been traced back to the south border of Russia.
originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: FatherLukeDuke
You are spot on with your reply, except for one thing;
The IE didnt move into a declining Idus valley civilization so much as the climate change that caused the Indus civ to fail also put the IE in motion as there ancestral grazing lands could no longer support their herds.
Thanks, and well, probably- it's all competing hypotheses anyway. Some still maintain they come from Anatolia, but I understand that is losing ground at a decent rate. The decline of grazing lands at the same time sounds reasonable - nomadic peoples usually range further in response to declining resources.
Most people also don't realize that the Idus valley civ. knew nothing of the horse, there are no imagery or statuary of horses ever found at a Indus Civ. site.
And what an advantage in the steppe people must have had over the horseless locals - with their wheeled carts they must have been tremendously mobile compared to the agrarian village dwellers.
edit on 13/6/16 by FatherLukeDuke because: (no reason given)
a reply to: FatherLukeDuke
The map you show is an illustration of the Kurgan hypothesis, that same hypothesis states that:
"Marija Gimbutas defined the "Kurgan culture" as composed of four successive periods, with the earliest (Kurgan I) including the Samara and Seroglazovo cultures of the Dnieper/Volga region in the Copper Age (early 4th millennium BC). The people of these cultures were nomadic pastoralists, who, according to the model, by the early 3rd millennium BC had expanded throughout the Pontic-Caspian steppe and into Eastern Europe.[3]"
en.wikipedia.org...
Where is the Volga river??
"The Volga (Russian: Во́лга; IPA: [ˈvolɡə] ( listen)) is the longest river in Europe; it is also Europe's largest river in terms of discharge and watershed. It flows through central Russia and into the Caspian Sea, and is widely viewed as the national river of Russia."
en.wikipedia.org...
Now please do explain how that is significantly different from what I posted below:
The first-ever sequencing of ancient genomes extracted from human remains has revealed a previously unknown “fourth strand” of ancient European ancestry that eventually spread into south Asia, including India, a new study reported. DNA from ancient remains from the Caucasus proves that a small but important portion of the European genome comes from a distinct population of hunter-gatherers who survived the ice age by sheltering for several thousand years in the Caucasus Mountains on the present day Russian-Georgian border, a study appearing in Nature Communications explains. Around 22,000 years ago, as the ice age receded, those Caucasus peoples began to merge with horse-riding herders of the steppes of Eastern Europe,
“A similar population must have migrated into south Asia at some point,” says Eppie Jones, Ph.D. student from Trinity College who is the first author of the paper. “India is a complete mix of Asian and European genetic components. The Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry is the best match we’ve found for the European genetic component found right across modern Indian populations,” Jones elaborated.
www.albanydailystar.com...
Whilst they have so far traced these Aryans back to south Russia I say in time they will find bones in the far north of Russia up closer to the arctic circle, the land immediately around the axial mountain meru.
The map you show is an illustration of the Kurgan hypothesis, that same hypothesis states that:
"Marija Gimbutas defined the "Kurgan culture" as composed of four successive periods, with the earliest (Kurgan I) including the Samara and Seroglazovo cultures of the Dnieper/Volga region in the Copper Age (early 4th millennium BC). The people of these cultures were nomadic pastoralists, who, according to the model, by the early 3rd millennium BC had expanded throughout the Pontic-Caspian steppe and into Eastern Europe.[3]"
en.wikipedia.org...
Where is the Volga river??
"The Volga (Russian: Во́лга; IPA: [ˈvolɡə] ( listen)) is the longest river in Europe; it is also Europe's largest river in terms of discharge and watershed. It flows through central Russia and into the Caspian Sea, and is widely viewed as the national river of Russia."
en.wikipedia.org...
Now please do explain how that is significantly different from what I posted below:
The first-ever sequencing of ancient genomes extracted from human remains has revealed a previously unknown “fourth strand” of ancient European ancestry that eventually spread into south Asia, including India, a new study reported. DNA from ancient remains from the Caucasus proves that a small but important portion of the European genome comes from a distinct population of hunter-gatherers who survived the ice age by sheltering for several thousand years in the Caucasus Mountains on the present day Russian-Georgian border, a study appearing in Nature Communications explains. Around 22,000 years ago, as the ice age receded, those Caucasus peoples began to merge with horse-riding herders of the steppes of Eastern Europe,
“A similar population must have migrated into south Asia at some point,” says Eppie Jones, Ph.D. student from Trinity College who is the first author of the paper. “India is a complete mix of Asian and European genetic components. The Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry is the best match we’ve found for the European genetic component found right across modern Indian populations,” Jones elaborated.
www.albanydailystar.com...
Whilst they have so far traced these Aryans back to south Russia I say in time they will find bones in the far north of Russia up closer to the arctic circle, the land immediately around the axial mountain meru.
Why do your theories have nothing at all to do with the actual factual stuff you copy and paste in? Do you read the links you put up?
Bones? What will finding some bones show? The indo-Europeans (nobody really calls them Aryans anymore) were steppe people - cattle herders and horse riders. What makes you think that researchers will suddenly decide they are from Northern Siberia? You post evidence for one thing, then claim something completely different.
And I'm genuinely confused as to where "axial mountain meru" is meant to be??? Mt Meru is in the Himalayas.
originally posted by: zinc12
a reply to: FatherLukeDuke
Whilst they have so far traced these Aryans back to south Russia I say in time they will find bones in the far north of Russia up closer to the arctic circle, the land immediately around the axial mountain meru.
Bones? What will finding some bones show? The indo-Europeans (nobody really calls them Aryans anymore) were steppe people - cattle herders and horse riders. What makes you think that researchers will suddenly decide they are from Northern Siberia? You post evidence for one thing, then claim something completely different.
And I'm genuinely confused as to where "axial mountain meru" is meant to be??? Mt Meru is in the Himalayas.
edit on 13/6/16 by FatherLukeDuke
because: (no reason given)
a reply to: zinc12
No, you cited a current interpretation of the data. I'm not even going to address the rest of your post. Incidentally, Vedic culture vanished over 2,000 years ago. The Upanishads, considered across cultures to be among the most profound spiritual works, were produced, it is believed, by the native, and therefore lower caste, Dravidians.
Nice try but I already showed that the European genetic component in high chaste Indians has been traced back to the south border of Russia.
No, you cited a current interpretation of the data. I'm not even going to address the rest of your post. Incidentally, Vedic culture vanished over 2,000 years ago. The Upanishads, considered across cultures to be among the most profound spiritual works, were produced, it is believed, by the native, and therefore lower caste, Dravidians.
originally posted by: FatherLukeDuke
Why do your theories have nothing at all to do with the actual factual stuff you copy and paste in? Do you read the links you put up?
originally posted by: zinc12
a reply to: FatherLukeDuke
Whilst they have so far traced these Aryans back to south Russia I say in time they will find bones in the far north of Russia up closer to the arctic circle, the land immediately around the axial mountain meru.
Bones? What will finding some bones show? The indo-Europeans (nobody really calls them Aryans anymore) were steppe people - cattle herders and horse riders. What makes you think that researchers will suddenly decide they are from Northern Siberia? You post evidence for one thing, then claim something completely different.
And I'm genuinely confused as to where "axial mountain meru" is meant to be??? Mt Meru is in the Himalayas.
What will finding bones show, um like genetics perhaps. You do know that it was through extracting dna from bones found in the Caucasus that lead the geneticists to state :
"The Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry is the best match we’ve found for the European genetic component found right across modern Indian populations,”
As for the Himalayas it is a mountain range not a mountain, it is clearly not 84,000 yojanas high,it is not narrow at its base and wide at its top and the cosmos does not rotate around it!!
oh and it is not "present in the middle of the Earth, but not seen there" (Narpatijayacharya)
I think nobody would have difficulty seeing the Himalayan mountain range !
Indians need to place meru in India because they know the text of the Aryans, the Vedas state that their homeland is the land immediately around the base of meru.
Zoroastrian text say nothing about meru being the Himalayas
The Thai illustration I posted of meru at the centre of the Earth disc you say that in some way resembles the Himalayas?
edit on 13-6-2016 by
zinc12 because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: zinc12
Nice try but I already showed that the European genetic component in high chaste Indians has been traced back to the south border of Russia.
No, you cited a current interpretation of the data. I'm not even going to address the rest of your post. Incidentally, Vedic culture vanished over 2,000 years ago. The Upanishads, considered across cultures to be among the most profound spiritual works, were produced, it is believed, by the native, and therefore lower caste, Dravidians.
Current interpretation yeah genetics.
As for the Vedic text being produced by lower chaste that is hilarious since it says in the Veda that low chaste must not be allowed to learn, recite or listen to the Vedic text. In fact it says if they are caught listening to it molten lead should be poured into their ears.
originally posted by: zinc12
originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: zinc12
Nice try but I already showed that the European genetic component in high chaste Indians has been traced back to the south border of Russia.
No, you cited a current interpretation of the data. I'm not even going to address the rest of your post. Incidentally, Vedic culture vanished over 2,000 years ago. The Upanishads, considered across cultures to be among the most profound spiritual works, were produced, it is believed, by the native, and therefore lower caste, Dravidians.
Current interpretation yeah genetics.
As for the Vedic text being produced by lower chaste that is hilarious since it says in the Veda that low chaste must not be allowed to learn, recite or listen to the Vedic text. In fact it says if they are caught listening to it molten lead should be poured into their ears.
Either straw man or reading comprehension problem.
I'll wait to see.
Harte
ive worked with iranians and they dont look aryan to me at all. they are more arabic/semitic in appearance. the germans from bavaria and switzerland are aryan alright. in india ive read northern part are predominantly aryan the descendant of aryan conquerors from north russia
originally posted by: zinc12
a reply to: Nochzwei
The Aryans in India today(there are others elsewhere) or rather the descendants of them are among the higher caste Indians. Today anyone can learn Sanskrit it don't mean that you can trace your genealogy back to these Aryans.
a reply to: zinc12
Are you a geneticist? How did you collect your data?
I didn't say the Dravidians wrote the Vedic texts, did I? The early Vedic texts are barbaric compilations of ritual horse sacrifice and beastiality, as I'm sure you must know. I was referring to the Upanishads, which were added to the Vedic canon after the nomadic religion ceased to be practiced.
Well, at least the racism has bubbled up to the surface now. Be very wary of any group claiming to be Vedic: right wing totalitarian cults have started using that term to justify racism, sexism, and sexual exploitation.
Current interpretation yeah genetics.
Are you a geneticist? How did you collect your data?
As for the Vedic text being produced by lower chaste that is hilarious since it says in the Veda that low chaste must not be allowed to learn, recite or listen to the Vedic text. In fact it says if they are caught listening to it molten lead should be poured into their ears.
I didn't say the Dravidians wrote the Vedic texts, did I? The early Vedic texts are barbaric compilations of ritual horse sacrifice and beastiality, as I'm sure you must know. I was referring to the Upanishads, which were added to the Vedic canon after the nomadic religion ceased to be practiced.
Well, at least the racism has bubbled up to the surface now. Be very wary of any group claiming to be Vedic: right wing totalitarian cults have started using that term to justify racism, sexism, and sexual exploitation.
a reply to: DJW001
I see so me saying the Aryans were not native Indians is racist. The Indian guy who wrote the book detailing how the Veda shows the Aryans were from the Arctic circle is racist. The geneticists who studied the DNA of high chaste Indians and declared they are genetically closer to Europeans is racist. The geneticists who traced the European content back to Russia are racist. Well if speaking the truth makes one racist then so be it I have skin thick enough to cope
Then again you declaring that the peoples who wrote the Veda were barbaric could be racist too!
And where did you read the Vedānta was the work of South Indian Dravidian's?
I see so me saying the Aryans were not native Indians is racist. The Indian guy who wrote the book detailing how the Veda shows the Aryans were from the Arctic circle is racist. The geneticists who studied the DNA of high chaste Indians and declared they are genetically closer to Europeans is racist. The geneticists who traced the European content back to Russia are racist. Well if speaking the truth makes one racist then so be it I have skin thick enough to cope
Then again you declaring that the peoples who wrote the Veda were barbaric could be racist too!
And where did you read the Vedānta was the work of South Indian Dravidian's?
edit on 14-6-2016 by zinc12 because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: Harte
originally posted by: zinc12
a reply to: Harte
Only the upper chaste Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas were considered Arya, the twice born.
The idea that lower chaste produced the Vedic text is ridiculous
So, reading comprehension problem it is.
Harte
A comprehensive explanation as usual !
zinc12 thank you for this thread, i have wondered about indians and aryans and their origins, because officially accepted story stinks a bit ...
your sources are good enough for me, although, for people who don't find any deeper meaning in religious and spiritual texts and take them only as myths and legends, it will always be just that...
so arguing about this or that is useless, it is what it is, we all have our own view of history...and reality.
talking about existence of mount Meru in other realities, to someone who does not accept reality outside of 5 senses is similar to explaining colors to blind people
your sources are good enough for me, although, for people who don't find any deeper meaning in religious and spiritual texts and take them only as myths and legends, it will always be just that...
so arguing about this or that is useless, it is what it is, we all have our own view of history...and reality.
talking about existence of mount Meru in other realities, to someone who does not accept reality outside of 5 senses is similar to explaining colors to blind people
originally posted by: zinc12
originally posted by: Harte
originally posted by: zinc12
a reply to: Harte
Only the upper chaste Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas were considered Arya, the twice born.
The idea that lower chaste produced the Vedic text is ridiculous
So, reading comprehension problem it is.
Harte
A comprehensive explanation as usual !
Me explain? Explain what?
You should be explaining here. You can start by quoting DJW001 saying the Vedas were written by the lowest caste:
As for the Vedic text being produced by lower chaste that is hilarious since it says in the Veda that low chaste must not be allowed to learn, recite or listen to the Vedic text. In fact it says if they are caught listening to it molten lead should be poured into their ears.
End your explanation where you want, but not before explaining why you spell it chaste.
Harte
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